Which offensive player can help the Titans the most?

[begooode]

honestly, I want both Howard and Ross.  Talk about flipping the script on team speed!

[siamesedinasour]

10 minutes ago, big2033 said:

The same things were said about Brandin Cooks and we aggressively pursued him.

It's not just "4.22." That's oversimplifying things.

He runs routes and made plays.

Whether he grades out overall as good as Cooks did coming out ... and whether he's in the right spot for us to draft him is the question.

 

23 minutes ago, begooode said:

And all I'm saying is 4.22 is a different beast and has to be accounted for differently.  

Some people keep on talking about his 4.22 as the primary reason to go after him. If it sounds like I'm oversimplifying it, that's because it sounds like many who like Ross are oversimplifying it.

And, two things about the rest of your (big2033) post.

1. Cooks has other assets besides his speed and even then, its arguable that he is worth a 1st round pick.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/brandin-cooks-wins-his-routes/.

2. I'd argue with "he runs routes and made plays." He's had trouble running his routes against physical CBs. He's made some plays, but I still go back to him only having 4 100+ yard games in his career. It's not like he's out making 3 or 4 huge plays every game. 

 

[siamesedinasour]

14 minutes ago, begooode said:

So you're implying he didn't play fast and is just a track guy?

No. I am saying, though, that his elite speed did absolutely nothing for Washington against Alabama. He couldn't get open. 

[TitanDuckFan]

4 minutes ago, begooode said:

And others are acting like 4.22 playing speed with ability to track the deep ball and make big catches can be had any round, in any draft,...

So, if he's getting jammed at the LOS consistently, and can't complete his routes regularly because he's not strong enough, how long do you think he keeps that 4.22 speed?  Especially considering his knees already suck?

[begooode]

1 minute ago, siamesedinasour said:

 

Some people keep on talking about his 4.22 as the primary reason to go after him. If it sounds like I'm oversimplifying it, that's because it sounds like many who like Ross are oversimplifying it.

And, two things about the rest of your (big2033) post.

1. Cooks has other assets besides his speed and even then, its arguable that he is worth a 1st round pick.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/brandin-cooks-wins-his-routes/.

2. I'd argue with "he runs routes and made plays." He's had trouble running his routes against physical CBs. He's made some plays, but I still go back to him only having 4 100+ yard games in his career. It's not like he's out making 3 or 4 huge plays every game.

 

Cooks' worth as a first round pick is 'arguable'? yet 2 NFL teams have done just that

College production requires context.  Traits in game film + opportunities should not be buried by final stats.

[big2033]

I'm not saying we should take Ross. I'm saying some of the arguments for NOT taking him are weak.

 

Edited March 22, 2017 by big2033

[siamesedinasour]

Just now, begooode said:

Cooks' worth as a first round pick is 'arguable'? yet 2 NFL teams have done just that

College production requires context.  Traits in game film + opportunities should not be buried by final stats.

Goodness. 

First, we had a lot of discussions on here whether we would trade our 18th pick for Cooks straight up, and a vast majority said they wouldn't do it. So, obviously it's arguable because we argued about it.

Secondly, your second point is exactly my point. So many people want to say, "He ran a 4.22!!! He would be HUGE for our offense!" I'm saying watch the tape against physical CBs. I cited his 100+ yard games because it illustrates how he isn't seemingly making big plays on a regular basis. He makes them, of course. You just don't often see it several times per game. If we can't use any stats at all and only have to refer to game film than I suggest we can't use the 4.22 time either.

[siamesedinasour]

2 minutes ago, big2033 said:

I'm not saying we should take Ross. I'm saying some of the arguments for NOT taking him are weak.

 

I'd say the same thing on the other side. I'm not completely against him. But, I still haven't really seen a strong argument for him besides his 4.22 time. 

[Stranger]

2 minutes ago, Soxcat said:

 

But the point is simply this.  If we wanted a guy like Ross we should have traded for Cooks.  18 is better than 32 so the Saints would have been all over it.  That is a valid point. Cooks is more proven, seems to have a huge edge on reliability and would step in on day one and be a 1000 yard WR for us.  

 

 

This is what keeps me from thinking the Titans will actually draft Ross.

If Ross is worth the 18th, then Cooks most certainly was. The Pats 32nd pick was more than whatever it was that we actually offered. It wouldn't make much sense to draft a guy with no certainty that he will produce and has injury issues over just trading the pick for a guy that you know will produce.

 

[big2033]

34 minutes ago, siamesedinasour said:

I'd say the same thing on the other side. I'm not completely against him. But, I still haven't really seen a strong argument for him besides his 4.22 time. 

There are numerous blurbs out there that are proof enough:

 

Ross was a very productive wideout for Washington in 2016 with 81 receptions for 1,150 yards and 17 touchdowns. For the NFL, he will have to fit as a speedy, shifty slot receiver as he is very undersized. If Ross can add some weight, he could be a Brandin Cooks-type receiver. Otherwise, Ross might be more similar to Sterling Shepard or Tavon Austin. Ross has good hands, route-running and is fast. He could be a mismatch weapon as a slot receiver. 

or CBSSports:

NFL COMPARISON -- Brandin Cooks, New Orleans Saints: Despite being undersized like Cooks, Ross has the route running skills and athletic prowess to get open and be a big play target like the Saints receiver.

Edited March 22, 2017 by big2033

[GLinks]

Chad Johnson wasn't all that fast, not that big, but his quick feet created misdirection and separation almost instantly. He was nearly unjammable for a lot of his career.

I agree, you motion Ross, you can put him in bunch formations, and DBs are gonna get real handsy with him. Beyond 5 yards, it's a penalty, and there'll be a lot of those, I bet. 

Different regime, but Titans did it once at 23 (let's not argue it beyond that, for now), and it'll be other teams that think they can experience similar or greater early success with the top speedster. If you get great play out of him for 4-5 years, it's probably worth it. 

And at least, he won't be pounding up the middle on most every damn play. And this is a much smarter organization than when Fisher was head honcho. Ross could easily be worth taking in round one for us. 

I still like Howard the most, but I see Ross can have a huge roll in this offense. As said before, slot and vertical. This becomes a deadly offense with a speedster who runs routes and catches well.

 

Edited March 22, 2017 by GLinks

[Number9]

On March 21, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Jonboy said:

Christian McCaffrey- Admittedly, McAffrey would be somewhat of a darkhorse pick for the Titans. I'm not sure he has a true position, but he's a guy who undoubtedly has the physical ability and makes plays with the ball in his hands. The Titans could use him right away in the slot and the return game. I need to read more about him to see how precise he is as a route runner because he would absolutely have to be heavily involved at the WR position with us to make the pick worth it. For more of a secondary benefit, he could also be used as RB insurance for Murray and Henry, should one of them go down. When Murray eventually retires or moves on, we'd still have a terrific 1-2 punch in McCaffrey and Henry. 

 

He's an intriguing guy.  He's just not right for the Titans right now.  I wish he was because I think he's going to be one of the best players coming out of this draft.  He knows what to do with the ball in his hands and he brings the kind of energy that would be great for the Titans.

[KnoxTitan]

It's not as simple as the 18th/Ross or Cooks.

The 18th has a ton of potential targets - they might like Cooks, but they might like Davis/Williams better. They might be targeting a TE or a DB with the 18th.

If your draft board has Howard, MWill, Davis, Lattimore, Hooker, and who knows else above Cooks, and then Ross, you still keep the pick and play the odds that one of your higher rated guys is still there at 18.

If you're on the clock at 18 and all your other targets or gone - then you make the Cooks or Ross decision. Not before that.

"We should have just traded the 18th for Cooks" oversimplifies a more complex decision.

 

[Bongo59]

15 minutes ago, Number9 said:

He's an intriguing guy.  He's just not right for the Titans right now.  I wish he was because I think he's going to be one of the best players coming out of this draft.  He knows what to do with the ball in his hands and he brings the kind of energy that would be great for the Titans.

his 3 cone is what makes him valuable as a slot.   

[siamesedinasour]

1 hour ago, big2033 said:

There are numerous blurbs out there that are proof enough:

 

Ross was a very productive wideout for Washington in 2016 with 81 receptions for 1,150 yards and 17 touchdowns. For the NFL, he will have to fit as a speedy, shifty slot receiver as he is very undersized. If Ross can add some weight, he could be a Brandin Cooks-type receiver. Otherwise, Ross might be more similar to Sterling Shepard or Tavon Austin. Ross has good hands, route-running and is fast. He could be a mismatch weapon as a slot receiver. 

or CBSSports:

NFL COMPARISON -- Brandin Cooks, New Orleans Saints: Despite being undersized like Cooks, Ross has the route running skills and athletic prowess to get open and be a big play target like the Saints receiver.

 

1 hour ago, siamesedinasour said:

I'd say the same thing on the other side. I'm not completely against him. But, I still haven't really seen a strong argument for him besides his 4.22 time. 

See the bolded. Finding a profile online that agrees with you isn't a strong argument. Give me examples. Show me film. The film I've seen shows him getting thrown off his routes by physical CBs. The film I've seen shows fine hands, good hands.

If we're going to think finding an online profile is a "strong argument" than I show exhibits A, B, C, and D. *Let it be clear that I do not believe that these quotes below are arguments, just saying if online quotes quantify a "strong argument" then I'll speak that language.*

A: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/john-ross?id=2558010

Quote

WEAKNESSES

... Struggled to get into his routes cleanly and impact the game against the physical cornerbacks at Alabama. ... Has to learn to make contested catches.

B: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/2079710/john-ross

Quote

... Can be bumped off his route by physical corners ...,,consistently asked to finish contested passes on tape. Tends to body catch when the ball is thrown at his numbers and will have his share of focus drops and double-catches. Needs to improve his ball security ...

C. http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/2017-nfl-draft-scouting-report-john-ross-wr-washington-011417

Quote

Weaknesses:

... Not the best route runner...

D. http://thejetpress.com/2017/03/19/nfl-draft-profile-wide-receiver-john-ross/

Quote

WEAKNESSES

He will need to sharpen his intermediate routes... Struggled to get into his routes in one of the biggest games of his early career.