Pragidealist Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Callidus said: Im agree with everything your saying except this concept that the guy holding the playsheet that decides which of the 400 different combinations of said plays and formations has little to no bearing. A somewhat competent play caller would have tosses out the damn toss play from our playbook at some point in the last 20 years. Maybe they would have not used these stupid pitty packages or playing 15 yards off the ball on 3rd and 10 over and over again. We are talking two different things here. Tactical and strategic level. Sure the strategic level of things has alot to do with it but if you handcuff the guy on the ground calling the actual shots to the overall plan you will not get the best results. Is the play caller so kinda master mind that can single handedly destroy another team by his boundless intelligence? No way in hell. But you can certainly have a better shot than asking madden for the play call. And if asking madden doesnt sound like what you are saying it is. The game picks a play depending on your game plan and the down and distance. For me that's managment and how he leads the team and approves their plans and proposals. That's not what I would define as play calling. That's how well he manages and leads. It absolute is like asking Madden.. except "madden" is hs coaching staff and they prepicked and he approved that plan going in. And those are the plays they feel confident the team can execute on. Its not Random .. He is over a process and is the final decision maker. That has weight. It has 10X more weight than what play they actually call on 3rd and 10. Bc really.. if he has led the process well- any damn play they call on that sheet- should be a good option or it shouldn't be on that sheet. And he is in charge of what is approved to be on that sheet. Edited May 19 by Pragidealist Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragidealist Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Callidus said: Im agree with everything your saying except this concept that the guy holding the playsheet that decides which of the 400 different combinations of said plays and formations has little to no bearing. A somewhat competent play caller would have tosses out the damn toss play from our playbook at some point in the last 20 years. Maybe they would have not used these stupid pitty packages or playing 15 yards off the ball on 3rd and 10 over and over again. We are talking two different things here. Tactical and strategic level. Sure the strategic level of things has alot to do with it but if you handcuff the guy on the ground calling the actual shots to the overall plan you will not get the best results. Is the play caller so kinda master mind that can single handedly destroy another team by his boundless intelligence? No way in hell. But you can certainly have a better shot than asking madden for the play call. And if asking madden doesnt sound like what you are saying it is. The game picks a play depending on your game plan and the down and distance. Totally fair—and I’m not saying the guy holding the playsheet has no impact. What I’m saying is his decisions are made within a structure built by the staff all week. The playcaller doesn’t have 400 live options—he has 3 to 8 per situation, curated based on film, tendencies, and collaboration. That’s why bad habits like the toss play or soft zone on 3rd and long persist—it’s not just the playcaller, it’s the philosophy and prep feeding the call sheet. Yes, tactical decisions matter. Calling Cover 4 off-man on 3rd and 3 instead of Cover 1 press can absolutely lose a game. But those options are influenced by what the DC was told to prioritize all week. You can’t fix bad tendencies by blaming the trigger man if the bullets are already loaded wrong. Playcalling isn’t "asking Madden"—but it’s also not freelance artistry. It’s a decision tree, and when that tree is pruned poorly, even smart choices lead nowhere. Who is actually pulling the trigger is less important- than how well the coach has created and managed the process. Edited May 19 by Pragidealist Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BudsOilers Posted May 19 Popular Post Report Share Posted May 19 (edited) It's a combination of these things....situational, personnel availability, skill sets/execution ability, the opponent tendencies/abilities. At the end of the day, the play caller is making the final call on what they do - yes it's a collaborative process but there's a reason why guys like McVay, Shanahan, Reid, etc. are HC/play callers. The non-play calling OC and staff absolutely contributes and the quality of staff and process does matter. All that aside, you're not putting lipstick on a pig. The Titans have not been able to truly run a drop back passing game for the last 3 seasons because of OL and WR play and also suffered from bottom level QB play. The FO knew what the problem was and the lack of offensive/defensive staff changes along with a ton of personnel changes tells the story. The offense will unquestionably be better because QB play will be better and OL play will be better. Presumably WR is improved as well. Edited May 19 by BudsOilers Callidus, freakingeek, IsntLifeFunny, and 3 others 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragidealist Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 (edited) 3 minutes ago, BudsOilers said: It's a combination of these things....situational, personnel availability, skill sets/execution ability, the opponent tendencies/abilities. At the end of the day, the play caller is making the final call on what they do - yes it's a collaborative process but there's a reason why guys like McVay, Shanahan, Reid, etc. are HC/play callers. The non-play calling OC and staff absolutely contributes. All that aside, you're not putting lipstick on a pig. The Titans have not been able to truly run a drop back passing game for the last 3 seasons because of OL and WR play and also suffered from bottom level QB play. The FO knew what the problem was and the lack of offensive/defensive staff changes along with a ton of personnel changes tells the story. Yes, the playcaller makes the final choice, but the success of that call is shaped by everything around it: personnel, preparation, situational structure, and opponent tendencies. The great ones—Reid, Shanahan, McVay—aren’t just good playcallers, they’re elite system builders and team managers. On the flip side, we’ve seen plenty of “brilliant” playcallers flop when they don’t have the structure, staff, or roster to support them. You don’t judge a coach by one play call—you judge them by how well they build a system that consistently gives their players high-percentage options. That’s been the Titans’ issue. This wasn’t about one guy holding a headset—it was about the total failure to build a sustainable offensive ecosystem, from talent to staffing to scheme continuity. Edited May 19 by Pragidealist Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragidealist Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 Vrabel was valued as a possible good coach (as many coordinotors have out of the Patriots)- that they could bring a "Patriots Way" of operating (like Apple, Southwest, or Google) to the Titans. But like a lot of coaches out of that system- none were great system builders and could not make that translate. The hope of today.. is in Brinker, Borgonzi, and Callahan to build the systems to make it all work well. On BC's side- that means running the week to week system that puts the right call sheet together and has the players read to play their best game. What he actually calls on any given situation should be fine. IF he has done a good job leading and managing that process- and Brinker and Borgonzi have done their jobs well- BC should be able to close his eyes and pick the play on a any given situation and it be successful. Then add in any talent, feel or ability on playcalling- and you get really big plays and exceptional plays out it. Good playcalling should be icing on the cake of a good system- and ultimately not required in order to win most games. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudsOilers Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 Just now, Pragidealist said: Yes, the playcaller makes the final choice, but the success of that call is shaped by everything around it: personnel, preparation, situational structure, and opponent tendencies. The great ones—Reid, Shanahan, McVay—aren’t just good playcallers, they’re elite system builders and team managers. On the flip side, we’ve seen plenty of “brilliant” playcallers flop when they don’t have the structure, staff, or roster to support them. You don’t judge a coach by one play call—you judge them by how well they build a system that consistently gives their players high-percentage options. That’s been the Titans’ issue. This wasn’t about one guy holding a headset—it was about the total failure to build a sustainable offensive ecosystem, from talent to staffing to scheme continuity. The talent is far more important to a play caller/system.....but I do think you're underestimating the role of the elite play caller HC in how hands on they are in that eco system of preparation and process. In nearly every one of these cases, they have strong DC's and ST coordinators that de facto run those units.....as opposed to the CEO HC who doesn't call plays but has their hands in everything and is perhaps more leadership focused. A Parcells, Belichick, Carroll, Vrabel type albeit in BB's case he seemed pretty deep with the defensive stuff than the others did. Pragidealist, TerryBoats, and IsntLifeFunny 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragidealist Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 (edited) 1 minute ago, BudsOilers said: The talent is far more important to a play caller/system.....but I do think you're underestimating the role of the elite play caller HC in how hands on they are in that eco system of preparation and process. In nearly every one of these cases, they have strong DC's and ST coordinators that de facto run those units.....as opposed to the CEO HC who doesn't call plays but has their hands in everything and is perhaps more leadership focused. A Parcells, Belichick, Carroll, Vrabel type albeit in BB's case he seemed pretty deep with the defensive stuff than the others did. I call all of that good leadership and management of the process. I don't discount that. I am saying THAT stuff is way more important than the actual call on Sunday. Edited May 19 by Pragidealist Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BudsOilers Posted May 19 Popular Post Report Share Posted May 19 Just now, Pragidealist said: I call all of that good leadership and management of the process. I don't discount that. I am saying THAT stuff is way more important than the actual call on Sunday. While I get what you are saying (process is more important than results), I'd argue the execution of the process is just as important. That being said, you can do the absolute right thing and have it fail do to poor execution on your team's part or exquisite preparation or execution by the opponent. The end of that SEA/NE SB is a prime example. The play call, given the defensive front/clock/SEA timeout situation, was fine. The play failed for one reason. NE and Brandon Browner recognized the play and stonewalled Jermain Kearse, who's responsibility on the play was to pick Malcolm Butler. A successful pick/rub by Kearse on Butler has Lockette wide open with an easy TD. Meanwhile, dullards to this day bemoan how they could not just run the ball against a stacked front. IsntLifeFunny, Pragidealist, Mythos27, and 2 others 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungtide Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 Great listen. Thanks for posting about it. OILERMAN 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NashvilleNinja Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 3 hours ago, Pragidealist said: That’s been the Titans’ issue. This wasn’t about one guy holding a headset—it was about the total failure to build a sustainable offensive ecosystem, from talent to staffing to scheme continuity. Did you get that from the Bible? It reads like you got that from the Bible. Callidus, and Pragidealist 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsntLifeFunny Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 4 hours ago, BudsOilers said: While I get what you are saying (process is more important than results), I'd argue the execution of the process is just as important. That being said, you can do the absolute right thing and have it fail do to poor execution on your team's part or exquisite preparation or execution by the opponent. The end of that SEA/NE SB is a prime example. The play call, given the defensive front/clock/SEA timeout situation, was fine. The play failed for one reason. NE and Brandon Browner recognized the play and stonewalled Jermain Kearse, who's responsibility on the play was to pick Malcolm Butler. A successful pick/rub by Kearse on Butler has Lockette wide open with an easy TD. Meanwhile, dullards to this day bemoan how they could not just run the ball against a stacked front. They still should have ran it!! BudsOilers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsntLifeFunny Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 No way less than 2 yards away with Marshawn Lynch am I not running the ball twice...or at least do a play fake and roll out Wilson. Terrible play call and Belichick purposefully told Butler to be aware of that exact play. The Patriots knew what was coming...ergo terrible clock usage and play call. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudsOilers Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 1 hour ago, IsntLifeFunny said: No way less than 2 yards away with Marshawn Lynch am I not running the ball twice...or at least do a play fake and roll out Wilson. Terrible play call and Belichick purposefully told Butler to be aware of that exact play. The Patriots knew what was coming...ergo terrible clock usage and play call. Play call was fine. It failed because Kearse didn't pick Butler as he was supposed to do. Browner stopping Kearse in his tracks made the play work. The issue was the clock/TO situation. You run it again and get stuffed, you have to call TO and then you are relegated to throwing on 3rd and or 4th down. In addition, Seattle was not a great short yardage run team in goal line situations -suprisingly. oldschool 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scine09 Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 What was it, second down? How many timeouts did the Seahawks have? Not running it is one of the dumbest things an NFL team has done in the history of the league. I’m not convinced the Patriots wouldn’t have just let them score to at least have a chance. Just ridiculously dumb on every level on Seattle’s part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudsOilers Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 (edited) 15 minutes ago, scine09 said: What was it, second down? How many timeouts did the Seahawks have? Not running it is one of the dumbest things an NFL team has done in the history of the league. I’m not convinced the Patriots wouldn’t have just let them score to at least have a chance. Just ridiculously dumb on every level on Seattle’s part. Wrong as usual.....2nd down with 1 TO left and what 25 seconds left. The end of play was at 20 seconds. Run there and fail and you either have to burn your last TO or perhaps give up a play. If NE was intent on letting SEA score, they would have let Lynch score on the 1st down run to maximize time left for Brady. BB had timeouts left too and opted to not use them as time continued to run off. Classic case of people letting the end result skew the decision. The decision to pass and that play itself were fine. One guy lost his assignment and the play failed because of it. Edited May 19 by BudsOilers oldschool, Mythos27, and TheBukafax 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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