Argentina's Trump bound for Presidency?

[Jamalisms]

14 hours ago, begooode said:

Good lord, haven’t seen this thread for weeks, figured wth , how much can people focus on Argentina? Yeesh, I thought I was going off,…

 

Anyway, Argentina just devalued its currency by 50%. They’ve been in or around triple digit inflation for the better part of a decade already. What a mess, and if their new government only achieves one thing, I hope it’s getting a handle on this vicious cycle of economic instability. 
 

https://www.ft.com/content/593bd703-f68f-408e-b13e-60c97245bf0e

 

I think the move has been pretty well received as a first step, globally.

[begooode]

Commerce and a robust economy must have reasonable stability to function and their people to prosper.  After war or some sort of external calamity, hyperinflation has to be one of the most stressful environments to cope with, which increases esp for each age group (younger to older).  Historically, political upheaval then follows and almost anything can become rationalized by the affected society (ex: Weimar govt).  Hopefully Argentina will right the ship, as they've gone through before. Factoid: just over a 100 years ago, Argentina was one of the wealthiest countries in the world.  

 

The economic history of Argentina is one of the most studied, owing to the "Argentine paradox". As a country, it had achieved advanced development in the early 20th century but experienced a reversal relative to other developed economies, which inspired an enormous wealth of literature and diverse analysis on the causes of this relative decline.[1] Since independence from Spain in 1816, the country has defaulted on its debt nine times. Inflation has often risen to the double digits, even as high as 5000%, resulting in several large currency devaluations.

 

Argentina possesses definite comparative advantages in agriculture because the country is endowed with a vast amount of highly fertile land.[2] Between 1860 and 1930, exploitation of the rich land of the pampas strongly pushed economic growth.[3] During the first three decades of the 20th century, Argentina outgrew Canada and Australia in population, total income, and per capita income.[3] By 1913, Argentina was among the world's ten wealthiest states per capita.[4]...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Argentina

[Jamalisms]

https://apnews.com/article/argentina-inflation-milei-currency-cuts-peso-devaluation-beddb4f7fd0021463653af37908bcb78

 

An article discussing why or that many people think these drastic cuts are unnecessary first step.

[chef]

 

 

Have a solid contingent of Argentinians here on island we hang with.  Curious to hear their thoughts.  Initial were a little like those middle ground/nonpolitical types who voted for Trump - gov't is broken let's give him a chance - except perhaps with much stronger reasons why.  Argentina in most universes with a semi-competent or better gov't is likely a new world power at least on equal terms with the average leading European country. 

[Justafan]

7 minutes ago, chef said:

 

 

Have a solid contingent of Argentinians here on island we hang with.  Curious to hear their thoughts.  Initial were a little like those middle ground/nonpolitical types who voted for Trump - gov't is broken let's give him a chance - except perhaps with much stronger reasons why.  Argentina in most universes with a semi-competent or better gov't is likely a new world power at least on equal terms with the average leading European country. 

Interesting take. I have high hopes they'll be able to turn things around down there but the situation is so dire, it would be a real achievement to even stabilize and stop the bleeding in the near term. 

[chef]

2 minutes ago, Justafan said:

Interesting take. I have high hopes they'll be able to turn things around down there but the situation is so dire, it would be a real achievement to even stabilize and stop the bleeding in the near term. 

 

In what seems like always for them, they're starting behind the 8 ball here.  Can't say I'm exactly optimistic this guy will be the person to turn the ship around and very might well just blow it up.  But Desperate Times Call For Desperate Measures was definitely in play in this election, and he was really the only available choice for those desperate voters.

[IrishTitansFan]

8 hours ago, chef said:

 

 

Have a solid contingent of Argentinians here on island we hang with.  Curious to hear their thoughts.  Initial were a little like those middle ground/nonpolitical types who voted for Trump - gov't is broken let's give him a chance - except perhaps with much stronger reasons why.  Argentina in most universes with a semi-competent or better gov't is likely a new world power at least on equal terms with the average leading European country. 

They really are a sleeping giant and have been for years. The economy just defies all trends and logic and will be interesting to see how, if ever, they stabilise that

[begooode]

iirc, the struggle their people will bear from the needed fiscal austerity will be dramatic and usually this is where all the well-intentioned plans hit the skids as populists/socialists/spenders highlight the pain of the purposefully contractionary economic measures, push back and convince many to rebuke and oust the government. The new president's chainsaw is apropos, lol, and their next 2 years will define this latest iteration.

 

Our company has a site in Argentina.  For their local budgeting exercise, I asked the guy: how the hell do you guys come up with a local budget?  reply: Unfortunately it's rather easy, take the last 6 months spend, x2 to annualize x plus 50-75%, review on a monthly basis should we need to update.  All recent forecasts have been all over the place, and no one knows any better so there you go.  Yikes. 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by begooode

[Jamalisms]

I'm seeing a smattering of reports that the new govt has announced a total crackdown on protests.

 

I'll need to see details as reports crystallize but transition towards an authoritarian government is troubling and quite scary.

[Starkiller]

2 hours ago, Jamalisms said:

I'm seeing a smattering of reports that the new govt has announced a total crackdown on protests.

 

I'll need to see details as reports crystallize but transition towards an authoritarian government is troubling and quite scary.

Small government types always sound ideal, right up until they get power and decide what the system needs is a little order…

[IsntLifeFunny]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:18 AM, chef said:

 

There's where Liberal by many some definitions oft set by the media and the actual tenets of Liberalism have been colliding as of late.  Leftist and Liberal don't by most definitions line up as closely as the majority of the US tend to think.  Tolerant is a primary synonym of Liberal and don't see a ton of that among certain perceived Liberal groups (and definitely don't among Conservative either FTR but that never was their calling card).  Too many traditionally tolerant liberal institutions have slid into toe-the-line leftist ones, knowing that any publication, statement, tweet what not can equal full excommunication from the herd.  My personal pet peeve is when sound scientific research does not line up with someone's expected agenda, they are called out in some derogatory nomenclature of the Other, Wrong Side.*  I was a lab rat a long while ago and never recall politics walking into our domain like it does now.

 

Much of this a natural reaction to ongoing right wing extremism that in some has led to full cult-like behavior, but many of those efforts to balance the ship have just caused more violent rocking of it.  

 

Saw this piece by what I'd call a talented writer and brave HS Sr in LA: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-12-10/los-angeles-high-school-cancel-culture-free-speech.  Main concern here I appreciate is in the development psych aspect of it more than the usual right/left, woke/cancel pick-a-side ones.

 

*https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/steven-pinker-will-be-just-fine/614323/

*https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/8/11/biology-lecturer-gender-comments-backlash/

 

 

I'm sure some here will start looking for data to back up their side - just like I bet the HS kid who wrote the story is likely being doxxed already, a Jr High joke he told to a group of friends once now brought to the fore in a public censure effort.  But that is indeed the point here: we retreat to the rabbit holes of our opinions, shielded in an warm algorithm blanket, rather than actively  consider evidence of reality much less others as simply fellow human beings.  Painful to see people here whose words I have read for a long time now quarelling in such a way that feels less like a sibling squabble and more like Hatfields and McCoys.  And this is many ways is such a great place since there is a (semi)anonymous community where one can more freely express their opinions - a last Safe Space for open discussion.  

 

Only thing I ask is consider that everyone is almost certainly not 100% right, and the person with whom they disagree not 100% wrong.  Not insinuating any 50/50 situations, but good to challenge every belief sans knee jerk defensiveness. 

It still is that place, but it has taken on a different form after Trump. For the worst it has changed our ability to have dialogue because everything after him seems almost petty, especially in the face of Republicans not turning their back on him but doing the opposite. 

 

It's definitely an interesting time to be alive. Our phones have become glued to us and integrated into our daily lives as to be necessary to function. This place has been around during that transition in one form or another and the speed has only accelerated and will continue to do so. 

 

I had a long conversation with a trusted friend the other day who is a Trump supporter. This guy does very well for himself and runs a major IT division for a large Healthcare organization. He doesn't like Trump as a person. His premise is the end outcome of Liberalism is a nation cowed by its own government. Where I disagreed with him is that Republicans have actually embraced the notion that government should be involved at every level including people's private business. I do see his point though that the culture being promoted by both sides is one where if you aren't with me you're against me. It sucks. I used to argue with liberals all the time around here, but with Trump still in the equation I don't much anymore because in my mind he's an existential threat to our nation.

 

Dialogue and conversation can't really happen between the two sides until after this all plays itself out. Interestingly enough I co sides @Little Earl someone I appreciate even though I joke on him and he does me. I've spoken with @El Guapo several times and can understand his points about how inclusivity is now outpacing productivity. He's testified to me that people in hospitals are being passed over even though they're the best person for the job all in the name of DEI. That's a scary thought. Listening to @Justafan really does remind me of me before these strange times. I've personally come to the conclusion that Biden wanted to help his son and knowingly allowed his status to help him. That's definitely a problem overall but falls well short of a crime. 

 

With that said, as long as Republicans stand behind an openly authoritarian figure like Trump their points on such issues become muted to me. You can't talk about the degradation of society and the impending doom of Liberalism while openly supporting a man who tried his best to overturn our entire system of democracy. Both sides philosophy is null and void right now and until Trump is excised from the dialogue. There's too much passion involved, and even though both sides have good points, only one side is promoting a promised dictator by his own words. 

 

Strange times, but I really appreciated your post and will check out the links. 

[Justafan]

2 hours ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

It still is that place, but it has taken on a different form after Trump. For the worst it has changed our ability to have dialogue because everything after him seems almost petty, especially in the face of Republicans not turning their back on him but doing the opposite. 

 

It's definitely an interesting time to be alive. Our phones have become glued to us and integrated into our daily lives as to be necessary to function. This place has been around during that transition in one form or another and the speed has only accelerated and will continue to do so. 

 

I had a long conversation with a trusted friend the other day who is a Trump supporter. This guy does very well for himself and runs a major IT division for a large Healthcare organization. He doesn't like Trump as a person. His premise is the end outcome of Liberalism is a nation cowed by its own government. Where I disagreed with him is that Republicans have actually embraced the notion that government should be involved at every level including people's private business. I do see his point though that the culture being promoted by both sides is one where if you aren't with me you're against me. It sucks. I used to argue with liberals all the time around here, but with Trump still in the equation I don't much anymore because in my mind he's an existential threat to our nation.

 

Dialogue and conversation can't really happen between the two sides until after this all plays itself out. Interestingly enough I co sides @Little Earl someone I appreciate even though I joke on him and he does me. I've spoken with @El Guapo several times and can understand his points about how inclusivity is now outpacing productivity. He's testified to me that people in hospitals are being passed over even though they're the best person for the job all in the name of DEI. That's a scary thought. Listening to @Justafan really does remind me of me before these strange times. I've personally come to the conclusion that Biden wanted to help his son and knowingly allowed his status to help him. That's definitely a problem overall but falls well short of a crime. 

 

With that said, as long as Republicans stand behind an openly authoritarian figure like Trump their points on such issues become muted to me. You can't talk about the degradation of society and the impending doom of Liberalism while openly supporting a man who tried his best to overturn our entire system of democracy. Both sides philosophy is null and void right now and until Trump is excised from the dialogue. There's too much passion involved, and even though both sides have good points, only one side is promoting a promised dictator by his own words. 

 

Strange times, but I really appreciated your post and will check out the links. 

I disagree that all Republicans supported Trump. Many Republicans abandoned Trump or stood up to Trump and paid a price for doing so. Many voters abandoned the Republican party over this.  My father, a lifelong card-carrying Republican from Tennessee, told me he would take up arms and march to Washington if Trump somehow gets back into office. 

 

I agree that the rest of the Republican party needs to abandon Trump and excise the waste from their party. The country would be better off if moderates could wrestle control - both parties here - back and create an atmosphere of competitors and compromisers rather than adversaries and enemies. 

 

Still, Republicans think they are saving the country from woke idiots, and enough of the country is fed up that they are going to vote these people into office because they seem to be the only ones listening to them.

 

The Democrats think they are saving the country from a bunch of tyrants and corrupt elites. Enough of the country is scared or fed up that they vote these people into office even if they represent a segment of the country that is so extreme some would consider them to be enemies of the United States or at least that they represent foreign interests more than American interests. 

 

The irony is that both sides are right and could also paint the same argument against their own party. The answer isn't the Democrats. It's a failure of a party. The Republicans are in shambles and nothing but a shell of the Grand Old Party. Both sides have Tyrants. Both sides have corruption. Both sides have people with stupid or strange ideas that they want to force everyone else to live with. NEITHER side gives two shits about you or me or the American worker beyond keeping us placated so they can remain in office and the big scheme can keep going. 

 

Voters have to wake up. Until that happens, we will be governed by what we deserve. Innept, corrupt zealots who care more about using their office for personal gain than actually trying to fix any of the problems facing our nation. 

[OILERMAN]

It's not "both sides". The Dem side is far from perfect but the threat of another Trump presidency is catastrophic and more of a threat than any other time in US history. It's not just Trump either, people like Mike Johnson and other Republicans in office are actual threats to democracy.

 

These people have to be voted out, period.

[Justafan]

56 minutes ago, OILERMAN said:

It's not "both sides". The Dem side is far from perfect but the threat of another Trump presidency is catastrophic and more of a threat than any other time in US history. It's not just Trump either, people like Mike Johnson and other Republicans in office are actual threats to democracy.

 

These people have to be voted out, period.

It is on both sides. I'll agree that Trump represents an existential threat, and he needs to go, but he's a symptom and not a cause. Republicans are a reflection of what their base desires and that's the REAL problem on that side of the aisle.

 

As for the rest of this, though, Gregory Meeks and Menendez are as corrupt as anyone on the right. The progressive left has just as authoritarian and invasive ideas as the far-right.  They want to control how people talk, they want to legislate how people converse, debate, and even think.  House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries is in bed with the finance and real estate industry and is more interested in perceived racial justice than real governance. Nancy Pelosi made a fortune taking advantage of her position... along with many other of her entrenched colleagues. How can you have faith in a party that carries itself the way these people do?

 

AOC and the Squad are as bad as Majorie Taylor Greene in their own way. They want to warp the country into something that is not supported by the Constitution. Their warped sense of fairness is damaging, and their message corrupts. 

 

Don't even get me started on the social issues that aren't even real issues. 

 

So you can say whatever you want about both sides, and the Dems being the bastions while the Republicans are evil and all that. It's not true. Dems suck. Republicans suck. Trump is a traitor. Everything else is noise and ideologue partisanship. 

[IsntLifeFunny]

Democrats sucking>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Republicans following a traitor. 

 

 

Until that situation is resolved I'm a card carrying Democrat and likely will he from here on out because of the blatant hypocrisy of ever following such a demagogue in the first place.