Hamas Brutally Massacres Scores of Civilians: Israel Turns Genocidal

[Jamalisms]

2 minutes ago, Starkiller said:

... a spectacle.

 

Exactly.

[tgo]

11 minutes ago, Jamalisms said:

 

When it was called into doubt, you said it didn't matter. Just a purist for details at this point or do you maybe think it actually does matter that they weren't just murdered but beheaded as well?

 

It adds an extra level of depravity, even on top of an already depraved and unconscionable act. I just don't understand the point in folks online repeatedly challenging the gruesome nuanced details, relayed by reliable sources - the possible motivation behind that seems........questionable at best. Just seems like a futile and pointless argument to have. Reminds me too much of when people challenged specific happenings of the Holocaust simply because they were so unbelievably unconscionable.

 

I do understand that we want to avoid propaganda though, even when it's on ones own side and for a righteous cause. I just don't think quibbling over these details is worthy of anyone's time or energy when the point is the act of anti-human depravity to begin with.

Edited October 11, 2023 by tgo

[Titans279]

Just now, tgo said:

 

It adds an extra level of depravity, even on top of an already depraved and unconscionable act. I just don't understand the point in folks online repeatedly challenging the gruesome nuanced details - the possible motivation behind that seems........questionable at best.

 

I think things like the potential gang raping and then killing of women, or the beheading of babies are especially barbaric and do make the killings even more barbaric and viscerally evil.

 

I don't think you can deny that the method that someone is killed does effect our emotions. A killer who brutally tortures and then kills someone is going to be seen as more evil than someone who just shoots someone. That's not to say the "normal" killer is good.

[Jamalisms]

8 minutes ago, tgo said:

It adds an extra level of depravity, even on top of an already depraved and unconscionable act.

 

I agree.

 

8 minutes ago, tgo said:

I just don't understand the point in folks online repeatedly challenging the gruesome nuanced details - the possible motivation behind that seems........questionable at best.

 

If you support early reporting without being certain of facts due to fog of war and real time reporting, you should also support after-the-fact vetting of details. And if that vetting looks iffy (like those involved saying they actively won't provide support), you should also expect (if not outright support) real time questioning of the details until they're proven out.

 

To be honest, it feels weirdly defensive. But I've been known to be wrong.

[tgo]

9 minutes ago, Jamalisms said:

 

I agree.

 

 

If you support early reporting without being certain of facts due to fog of war and real time reporting, you should also support after-the-fact vetting of details. And if that vetting looks iffy (like those involved saying they actively won't provide support), you should also expect (if not outright support) real time questioning of the details until they're proven out.

 

To be honest, it feels weirdly defensive. But I've been known to be wrong.

 

Yeah, I suppose you're right. It's an emotional topic unfolding in real time.

 

As a student of the atrocities committed by the Nazis during WWII and the subsequent denials/disbelief back then of contemporary onlookers and by some even to this day of those happenings, it probably affects my starting position as giving the initial real-time reports the overwhelming benefit of the doubt.

 

I do not ascribe any ill will toward Irish or toward you in terms of motivations of course, and feel like we can have reasonable and civilized disagreements on various things. But I do ascribe that ill-will to some of these malign actors on Twitter and elsewhere who are heavily pushing back against the reports for transparently partisan reasons.

 

Having said that - I believe accuracy and precise historical truth is of paramount importance and we should in fact be making sure to be as accurate as possible as we go along, so I do understand your position.

Edited October 11, 2023 by tgo

[begooode]

The number of U.S. citizens confirmed to have been killed in the Israel-Hamas war has risen to 22, the State Department said Wednesday. That’s an increase from the 14 who’d been confirmed dead one day earlier.

 

https://apnews.com/live/israel-hamas-war-live-updates#0000018b-1f78-d04c-a5ef-3f7e11360000

[IrishTitansFan]

1 hour ago, Starkiller said:

There might be an argument to this if the propaganda was that children had been murdered when in fact they had not. But if the question is simply in how they were murdered then this is simply not a useful argument.

 

We can complain that the media is reporting some things where they may not have the facts right, but this degree of criticism is not helpful. All it does is promote the people who try to undermine the real media in general in favor of the actual propagandists supporting Putin or Hamas or whoever.

“Atrocity propaganda is the spreading of information about the crimes committed by an enemy, which can be factual, but often includes or features deliberate fabrications or exaggerations.”

 

Funnily enough the second time I came across the phrase was when Palestinians were guilty of it

[Jamalisms]

2 minutes ago, tgo said:

 

Yeah, I suppose you're right. It's an emotional topic unfolding in real time.

 

As a student of the atrocities committed by the Nazis during WWII and the subsequent denials/disbelief back then of contemporary onlookers and by some even to this day of those happenings, it probably affects my starting position as giving the initial real-time reports the overwhelming benefit of the doubt.

 

I do not ascribe any ill will toward Irish or toward you in terms of motivations of course, and feel like we can have reasonable and civilized disagreements on various things. But I do ascribe that ill-will to some of these malign actors on Twitter and elsewhere who are heavily pushing back against the reports for transparently partisan reasons.

 

100% agree.

 

I tend to believe that, even with front line reporting, the worst details are never seen and the true human cost and suffering is hard to appreciate. But I would never look at details beyond after-the-fact for fear of misinformation, so I am quite strongly biased towards skepticism ... especially when dealing with a subject where religion and demographics seem to be getting pulled in. That tends to be a dog whistle for riling emotions beyond the true facts on hand.

[IrishTitansFan]

9 minutes ago, tgo said:

 

Yeah, I suppose you're right. It's an emotional topic unfolding in real time.

 

As a student of the atrocities committed by the Nazis during WWII and the subsequent denials/disbelief back then of contemporary onlookers and by some even to this day of those happenings, it probably affects my starting position as giving the initial real-time reports the overwhelming benefit of the doubt.

 

I do not ascribe any ill will toward Irish or toward you in terms of motivations of course, and feel like we can have reasonable and civilized disagreements on various things. But I do ascribe that ill-will to some of these malign actors on Twitter and elsewhere who are heavily pushing back against the reports for transparently partisan reasons.

 

Having said that - I believe accuracy and precise historical truth is of paramount importance and we should in fact be making sure to be as accurate as possible as we go along, so I do understand your position.

There is no doubt a large faction of that discourse is from bad faith actors, my main worry is if it is false then it can make people look the other way if war crimes are committed on either side. Then it just becomes justice by retaliation 

[ctm]

The atrocities are publicized by both sides to influence public/world opinion.

[Starkiller]

13 minutes ago, IrishTitansFan said:

“Atrocity propaganda is the spreading of information about the crimes committed by an enemy, which can be factual, but often includes or features deliberate fabrications or exaggerations.”

 

Funnily enough the second time I came across the phrase was when Palestinians were guilty of it

They murdered babies. That’s not propaganda or exaggeration…

[headhunter]

So who here is a Palestinian sympathizer?

[Jamalisms]

1 minute ago, Starkiller said:

They murdered babies. That’s not propaganda or exaggeration…

 

And the details of how they did it (the spectacle) evoke an even stronger emotive response than the already strong revulsion people feel about murdered babies.

[Jamalisms]

Just now, headhunter said:

So who here is a Palestinian sympathizer?

 

Definitely the most important focus.

[begooode]

#freeTrumpenstans