tgo Posted April 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Titans279 said: I feel like the problem with this is that it ignores how Democrats, and everyone here, did expect BBB to pass. I think you were saying a 2T version would pass at least. It's kind of a post hoc rationalization to say that it was unrealistic. People certainly were acting like it was realistic. Seems weird to then say people can't be upset that something they were told to expect to happen doesn't actually happen. Sure, it all comes down to the votes not being there (and realistically they never will be for the foreseeable future), but I think you're ignoring that a lot of people understandably feel hoodwinked. Underlying problem seems to be the American electorate that vote for Republicans en masse all across the board. Party control really shouldn’t be as tight as it is with how totally off the rails and insane the right wing is now. The only reason things are so tight is because the US is chuck full of dumb people. Titans279 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titans279 Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 46 minutes ago, IsntLifeFunny said: I think they had the votes when Manchin delivered an offer to the WH and they rejected it. It was 1.8 trillion if I’m not mistaken. The WH overplayed their hand. If Manchin would have voted for it then so would have Sinema, and I imagine even the left flank would have given in. I don't think that Manchin's 1.8T deal would have passed as it was proposed because Manchin and Sinema never agreed on the taxes part of it. Their two tax policy wants were just completely incompatible. They still don't agree. That seems like the biggest obstacle to them trying to salvage any of the parts of BBB they all support (in theory). IMO it gets back to neither of them really cares if any part of BBB passes or not so they have no incentive to compromise. I actually suspect they're happier that nothing passes given the special interests they seem most attached to. IsntLifeFunny 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titans279 Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 27 minutes ago, tgo said: Underlying problem seems to be the American electorate that vote for Republicans en masse all across the board. Party control really shouldn’t be as tight as it is with how totally off the rails and insane the right wing is now. The only reason things are so tight is because the US is chuck full of dumb people. Take heart! France is possibly about to elect Marine Le Pen, so it's not like it's just us! We at least have the excuse that the Senate and Electoral College are significantly biased toward the ignorant country bumpkin vote by design, and the House by gerrymandering. tgo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgsTitan Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 Yeah the urban intellectuals have everything all figured out. No problems at all. We should all follow their lead. Titans279 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 2 hours ago, Titans279 said: I feel like the problem with this is that it ignores how Democrats, and everyone here, did expect BBB to pass. I think you were saying a 2T version would pass at least. It's kind of a post hoc rationalization to say that it was unrealistic. People certainly were acting like it was realistic. Seems weird to then say people can't be upset that something they were told to expect to happen doesn't actually happen. Sure, it all comes down to the votes not being there (and realistically they never will be for the foreseeable future), but I think you're ignoring that a lot of people understandably feel hoodwinked. It would have passed if Schumer and the Whitehouse took Manchin seriously on his red lines. Instead they acted like they had some progressive mandate which they didn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 I'll agree that Biden misplayed it spectacularly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 33 minutes ago, Jamalisms said: I'll agree that Biden misplayed it spectacularly. You mean Schumer who sucks. No wonder McConnell runs circles around him. Regardless the point stands. Dems delivered a ton but have little to no wriggle room and yet the average voter thinks they should be able to pass everything. It just shows how clueless most voters are. The GOP understands the average voter way better than the Dems do. Jamalisms, and ChemEngr79 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 Just to reiterate, they failed to pass something that you thought was inevitable and obvious and well within the bounds of expectation. It wasn't even a question. It was a cause of derision to doubt it. Along the way, the president gave his personal guarantee to people that he would get it done and then it didn't happen. It's a significant failure. Titans279 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OILERMAN Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 Didn’t Manchin start waffling and saying he’d vote against his own proposal? tgo, and pat 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 31 minutes ago, Jamalisms said: Just to reiterate, they failed to pass something that you thought was inevitable and obvious and well within the bounds of expectation. It wasn't even a question. It was a cause of derision to doubt it. Along the way, the president gave his personal guarantee to people that he would get it done and then it didn't happen. It's a significant failure. The dems fucked it up for sure but don't get it twisted, it was going to pass if they gave Manchin what he wanted rather than think they could browbeat him into voting for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titans279 Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, oldschool said: The dems fucked it up for sure but don't get it twisted, it was going to pass if they gave Manchin what he wanted rather than think they could browbeat him into voting for it. Maybe. They never had to reconcile Manchin and Sinema’s contradictory tax positions, so we’ll never know if it would have passed. OILERMAN 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, Titans279 said: Maybe. They never had to reconcile Manchin and Sinema’s contradictory tax positions, so we’ll never know if it would have passed. Definitely a fair point. Sinema did signal some movement on tax policy, just not the one that raises the corp rate which most dems agreed to. Further proof the goal should be to make sinema and manchin non deciding votes. Not take your ball and go home like some progressives pitch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
headhunter Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 Dems have tried to make this a culture war with whatever policy they try to pass and they've failed and will continue to fail IsntLifeFunny, and Starkiller 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsntLifeFunny Posted April 10, 2022 Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 3 hours ago, Titans279 said: I don't think that Manchin's 1.8T deal would have passed as it was proposed because Manchin and Sinema never agreed on the taxes part of it. Their two tax policy wants were just completely incompatible. They still don't agree. That seems like the biggest obstacle to them trying to salvage any of the parts of BBB they all support (in theory). IMO it gets back to neither of them really cares if any part of BBB passes or not so they have no incentive to compromise. I actually suspect they're happier that nothing passes given the special interests they seem most attached to. Maybe not, and maybe you’re right. We’ll never know. But I have a strong feeling if Manchin had of passed it it would have given cover to Sinema. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post IsntLifeFunny Posted April 10, 2022 Popular Post Report Share Posted April 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, headhunter said: Dems have tried to make this a culture war with whatever policy they try to pass and they've failed and will continue to fail …yeah it’s the Dems pushing a culture war while the GOP in the past year has proposed over 600 bills to halt abortion and remove LGBTQ rights. That isn’t to also mention in the past 15 months they overran the Capitol calling for the heads of the House and VP, all the while trying to overturn the election of the president. Sure, definitely the Dems who are knee deep in the culture war. LongTimeFan, Jerry Blair, Starkiller, and 3 others 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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