Dolphins statement on Tyreek (and Calais and Jonnu) situation

[IsntLifeFunny]

Just now, abenjami said:

 

You seem to be missing the fact that the cop witnessed a traffic violation and that is the basis for pulling him over and detaining him for the time necessary to write him a traffic citation.

 

Once that has occurred, state law says the officer can take the driver (and anyone else) out of the car during the traffic stop, without any reasonable suspicion or probable cause that some other crime has occurred.

 

Now can they take you out of the car and search you?  No.  But they can take you out of the car.

Well we are going to have to disagree here. Without reasonable suspicion that a crime is taking place it's my understanding that a cop does not have a right to remove you from your vehicle. He has to give a reason for it, stated or not, at some point t in the chain of events. 

 

Let's change the narrative around a bit. Do you think this cop has any reason to define his logic behind removing Hill from the car? In your interpretation he does not. In mine, he will say he feared for his life. 

[abenjami]

Just now, animatormike said:

These things vary by state, but just to clarify, you do not have to take a field sobriety test in pretty much any state and almost all lawyers will tell you to refuse such a test.  A breath or blood test is required in most states.

 

I agree and I never said anyone is required to take a field sobriety test, so I don't know where you got that from.  I have actually refused to take one myself after dodging a DUI checkpoint on my way home after happy hour.

 

It's typically blood, breath, or urine and the driver gets to choose which test.

[IsntLifeFunny]

1 minute ago, abenjami said:

 

I agree and I never said anyone is required to take a field sobriety test, so I don't know where you got that from.  I have actually refused to take one myself after dodging a DUI checkpoint on my way home after happy hour.

 

It's typically blood, breath, or urine and the driver gets to choose which test.

In TN they will take you to get your blood drawn lol. If they can't get that to happen they cite you with a DUI anyways for failing to give a breathalyzer. 

[abenjami]

Just now, IsntLifeFunny said:

Well we are going to have to disagree here. Without reasonable suspicion that a crime is taking place it's my understanding that a cop does not have a right to remove you from your vehicle. He has to give a reason for it, stated or not, at some point t in the chain of events. 

 

Let's change the narrative around a bit. Do you think this cop has any reason to define his logic behind removing Hill from the car? In your interpretation he does not. In mine, he will say he feared for his life. 

 

There's nothing to disagree about.  You're dead wrong.  There is an actual law in the State of Florida (and many other states) that says you have to get the fuck out of the car at a traffic stop if the officer asks you to get out.  It's not debatable, that is black and white.

 

Regarding your question, I think it's pretty obvious from the video that the cop's reasoning for removing Hill from his vehicle was to flex his authority over a piece of shit who was disrespecting him.  Did the officer have any legitimate safety concerns?  No, probably not and if there were any they were VERY minimal.

 

 

[abenjami]

1 minute ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

In TN they will take you to get your blood drawn lol. If they can't get that to happen they cite you with a DUI anyways for failing to give a breathalyzer. 

 

This is how it works everywhere.  They offer you the breathalyzer on the scene.  If you refuse then you go to the station and they do a blood draw.  The driver gets to choose.

 

If you refuse to do both then you get a DUI citation and in court you lose because the evidence code will essentially create a presumption you were intoxicated.  It's called an adverse inference.

 

Or in some states (such as California) you don't even have to be convicted in court, you automatically lose your license for refusing to submit to the test you agreed to submit to when you applied for the privilege to have a license.

[IsntLifeFunny]

3 minutes ago, abenjami said:

 

There's nothing to disagree about.  You're dead wrong.  There is an actual law in the State of Florida (and many other states) that says you have to get the fuck out of the car at a traffic stop if the officer asks you to get out.  It's not debatable, that is black and white.

 

Regarding your question, I think it's pretty obvious from the video that the cop's reasoning for removing Hill from his vehicle was to flex his authority over a piece of shit who was disrespecting him.  Did the officer have any legitimate safety concerns?  No, probably not and if there were any they were VERY minimal.

 

 

You're right about detainment. It's still an easy lawsuit for Hill. That's the grey area in the law. People being non-violent and doing the first part of the transaction of being detained shouldn't be forcibly removed in such a way. You're right about them having the ability to do so, yet cities keep paying millions for this exact type of behavior. 

[animatormike]

23 minutes ago, abenjami said:

 

I agree and I never said anyone is required to take a field sobriety test, so I don't know where you got that from.  I have actually refused to take one myself after dodging a DUI checkpoint on my way home after happy hour.

 

It's typically blood, breath, or urine and the driver gets to choose which test.

Wasn't arguing, just wanted to clarify.  Everyone should know you don't have to take a field sobriety test in most states and that wasn't clear in your original statement.  The field test is bullshit and just gives the officer an excuse to arrest you drunk or not, there is no passing the thing.

[animatormike]

35 minutes ago, TitanPoke said:

Yeah and then you lose your license and in oklahoma it's pretty much am automatic DUI

You do not have to take a "Field Sobriety" test in Oklahoma either, that is the typical term for stupid human tricks on the side of the road.  You do have to take a breath or blood test.

[abenjami]

26 minutes ago, animatormike said:

Wasn't arguing, just wanted to clarify.  Everyone should know you don't have to take a field sobriety test in most states and that wasn't clear in your original statement.  The field test is bullshit and just gives the officer an excuse to arrest you drunk or not, there is no passing the thing.

 

This seems like a good time for me to share a personal story that I haven’t shared on the board before.

 

This happened like 8 or 9 years ago.  I met a friend after work on a Friday for happy hour at a bar.  That turned into several drinks and then dinner with more drinks.  Fast forward a few hours, I definitely can’t drive home at that point, so I walked back to my office.  My plan was to just hang out there and do some organization stuff for a couple of hours until I sobered up enough to drive home.

 

After a few hours at the office, I felt like I was fine to drive, so I got in my car and headed out.  At this point it was nearing midnight on a Friday night.  I leave the office building parking garage and head towards the freeway entrance, which is only a few blocks away.  As I get to the first block down the road, I see all this stuff that looks abnormal.  Unfamiliar lights in the distance, cones closing one of the lanes to narrow the path, signs telling me where to go but there’s no construction.  And then it hits me, fuck I’m driving into a DUI checkpoint.

 

I immediately make a hard left at the first (and only) opportunity.  As I’m making the turn and looking down the road, I see that yep there’s a DUI checkpoint and I just avoided it.  Well so I thought.  After driving about 2 blocks, I see lights in my rearview and I’m being pulled over.

 

So I pull over to the curb.  It’s a cop on a motorcycle.  I roll my window down about 10% of the way (this makes it harder for them to claim they smelled alcohol) and hand him my license and registration.  He asks why I turned out to avoid the DUI checkpoint.  I tell him I don’t know what he’s talking about.  I explain I was just leaving my office and realized I forgot something I needed there and had turned around to go back to my office and get it.  Of course at that point I nonchalantly threw in that I was a lawyer going back to my law office.  I ask the cop why he pulled me over and he says my headlights were off (they weren't LOL).

 

He asks me to get out of the car to take a field sobriety test.  I told him no, I would not take a field sobriety test.  He asks me why and I told him because I’m a lawyer and I know better than to take a field sobriety test.  I’m waiting for him to ask me to take a breathalyzer test but he never does.  It turns out he doesn’t have a breathalyzer unit on him because all of the testing units are at the DUI checkpoint a few blocks away.  His job is to pull over the avoiders who turn out at the last second but they don't give him a unit (terrible protocol LOL).

 

This cop didn’t know what to do in that situation.  I think he was a little young and inexperienced.  I don’t think he had ever run into anyone who refused to take a field sobriety test.  So he tells me to just sit tight while he calls his Sargeant.  I’m like that’s fine with me.  At this point I haven’t had a drink in a few hours and all I’m doing is trying to delay having to take a blood test for as long as possible so that hopefully my body can purge enough alcohol to get me under the legal limit by the time they stick the needle in my arm.

 

So I sit there for about 15-20 minutes until eventually a Sargeant arrives.  He was running the DUI checkpoint but came over to handle my situation.  He comes up to my barely rolled down window and says he understands I am refusing to take a field sobriety test.  I explain to him that is indeed the case.  I explain to him that I do not like those tests because they are not scientific and rely more upon the officer’s subjective opinion.

 

That leads to this guy giving me a 30 minute dissertation on how scientific field sobriety tests are.  It was actually impressive to listen to.  This guy really knew his stuff when it came to things like pupil dilation, etc.  I was fucking impressed beyond belief to be honest.  After rambling on for all this time, he asks me what I think.  I tell him how impressed I am.  I ask him if he considers himself an expert in field sobriety testing and he says yes.  And then I tell him that is EXACTLY why I am not going to take one.  I explain to him that if I take a field sobriety test and he subjectively decides I am under the influence, then I am fucked.  We will be in court one day and he will explain to the jury what an expert he is in this kind of testing and they will believe him over me and I’m fucked.  So no, I’m not going to do it, I respectfully decline.

 

At that point he changes his strategy.  He says look man, I don’t really think you are intoxicated.  Why don’t you just get out of the car and take the field sobriety test so we can get this over with?

 

My response to that was this.  You just said that you don’t believe I am intoxicated.  Since you don’t believe that I am intoxicated, why am I being detained?  I've been sitting here for nearly an hour, what is your probable cause at this point?

 

He says, “you can leave now.  have a good night, drive home safely”.

Edited September 13, 2024 by abenjami

[Callidus]

1 hour ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

Well we are going to have to disagree here. Without reasonable suspicion that a crime is taking place it's my understanding that a cop does not have a right to remove you from your vehicle. He has to give a reason for it, stated or not, at some point t in the chain of events. 

 

Let's change the narrative around a bit. Do you think this cop has any reason to define his logic behind removing Hill from the car? In your interpretation he does not. In mine, he will say he feared for his life. 

In Florida its as simple as the cop saying i dont want to be standing in the road can you get out of the vehicle and talk to me over there. 

 

Not taking sides here just saying. 

[Mythos27]

5 hours ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

Their oath means all of nothing in terms of protection. The Supreme Court says it is not the responsibility to protect anyone even when on duty. 

Legally, I get it. Morally, it's unacceptable. 

[oldschool]

5 hours ago, abenjami said:

 

You're dead wrong here.  There are actual state laws that require you to get out of your car during a traffic stop if the officer tells you to get out.

 

As far as sobriety tests, no probable cause is required.  Having a driver's license is considered a privilege, it's not a constitutional right.  When you apply (or renew) for your license, you agree to submit to a sobriety test at the request of an officer if you have been pulled over.

 

They need some kind of infraction, reasonable suspicion, or probable cause to pull you over, but once that has been met the rest of the stuff doesn't require anything additional.

 

Source? I've always been told they can't make you get out of the car for minor traffic violations unless they have reasonable suspicion of drug/alcohol use or the driver is linked to another more serious crime.

Edited September 13, 2024 by oldschool

[charleytolar]

https://www.southmiamifl.gov/247/What-to-Do-When-Stopped-by-Law-Enforceme

 

 

What to Do When Stopped by a Police Officer While Driving

You, as a law-abiding citizen, can do the following to help lessen the uneasiness of the experience:

When you see the blue overhead lights and/or hear the siren, remain calm, slow down, and pull over in a safe location off the roadway.

Do not exit your vehicle unless asked to do so. This is for safety reasons.

Keep your hands on the steering wheel so the officer can see them.

Inform the officer of any weapons in your vehicle and their location. Do not reach or point to the location.

Avoid any sudden movements, especially toward the floorboard, rear seat, or passenger side of the vehicle.

Comply with the officer’s request to see your driver's license, proof of insurance, and vehicle registration. Florida law requires you to carry these with you.

If your documents are out of reach, tell the officer where they are before you reach for them.

If there are passengers in your vehicle, encourage them to remain quiet and cooperate with instructions. You, as the operator, are solely responsible for your vehicle and its occupants.

Avoid becoming argumentative. Arguing will not change the officer's mind. If you contest the violation, you will have an opportunity to address the matter in court.

Answer all questions truthfully.

The officer may issue you a ticket. If you feel the reason is vague or unclear, politely ask the officer for details.

If asked to sign a citation, do so. It is not an admission of guilt. Refusal could result in an arrest.

You have the right to politely deny a request by a police officer to search your car; however, if probable cause is present, the officer has the right to search your vehicle without your consent.

Understand that each situation is unique and the police officer must alter his or her response to fit the circumstance. Generally, however, a police office:

Will provide his/her name upon request.

Will inform a person of the reason for being stopped.

Will only arrest a person for a crime committed in the officer's presence, or when the officer has probable cause to believe the person has already committed the crime.

[charleytolar]

How dare the city expect COOPERATION from its citizens!

 

Tyreek complains about them banging on his windows as they gently tap-tap-tap. He rolls his tinted window back up so no one can tell what's going on inside. Meanwhile his friends' cars are pulling over nearby or pedestrians are interfering. He dawdles big time when asked to step outside the car.

 

Is it fair to say that he did nothing right but hand over his driver's license?

 

Not all of that was in Tyreek's control, of course; but just about everything he could do he did badly. A life of entitlement can be dangerous.

[titanruss]

9 minutes ago, charleytolar said:

How dare the city expect COOPERATION from its citizens!

 

Tyreek complains about them banging on his windows as they gently tap-tap-tap. He rolls his tinted window back up so no one can tell what's going on inside. Meanwhile his friends' cars are pulling over nearby or pedestrians are interfering. He dawdles big time when asked to step outside the car.

 

Is it fair to say that he did nothing right but hand over his driver's license?

 

Not all of that was in Tyreek's control, of course; but just about everything he could do he did badly. A life of entitlement can be dangerous.

 

Yet none of that qualifies as a reason to rip someone out of a car and knee them in the back. They know who he is and know why hew doesnt want to be seen before a game interacting with the cops. The know he isnt going to shoot him.

 

The police force also knows the cops fucked up because they already are handing down suspensions to them.