Hamas Brutally Massacres Scores of Civilians: Israel Turns Genocidal

[IrishTitansFan]

17 hours ago, Starkiller said:

Whose figures are we supposed to trust then?

Easy answer: David Collier the Tommy Robinson supporting Nazi! (Who TGO just cited again)

[Justafan]

1 hour ago, IrishTitansFan said:

Israel could not wipe out Palestine without losing their main benefactors and supporters, which would then leave them hopelessly exposed around Islamist aggressors along with creating many more terrorist groups

 

Palestinians would not kill all of the jews in a two state solution. Complete scare mongering. Israels military leaders have also shouted about wiping out all Palestinians, Netanyahu himself called the kids in Gaza children of the devil. Of course they won't be able to wipe out all Palestinians. Both sides have lunatics with pent up anger but it doesn't mean half of what they say would come to fruition

 

Israel are not terrorists insofar as they aren't Muslim and they don't have a recognised army so to the west they aren't. But what they're doing now is organised terrorism, especially the stuff with no justification in the west bank.

 

And no, Israel have little to no interest in brokering any peaceful solution that doesn't involve them annexing more land and slowly eroding Palestine until it doesn't exist, Netanyahu and their far right government has been pretty clear on that

 

Both sides desperately need new leadership who are willing to come together and broker a two state solution but the propsects aren't good

I agree that it's not in their best interest to commit genocide which would ostracize them from the world. I don't think that's the only reason they aren't doing it, though, and that is my point. If that was really their main goal, they absolutely could. 

 

If Hamas held power, there would be no Jews in Israel. One way or another. You can claim that's not true all you like, but I've been over there, and I've seen what extremists do to kids who are trying to go to school or groups they don't like who just want to live a peaceful existence in their proximity. Israeli leaders may throw out some empty rhetoric like all political leaders, especially those who got elected by promising to keep their citizens safe from the threats you mentioned on all sides, but that's politicians doing what politicians do. It's absolute BS to equate that to what Hamas leaders have said and done. It's not the same as what Hamas leaders have said and demonstrated, and it is 100% false equivalency to pretend it is.  There is NO doubt, and I mean ZERO, that Hamas would commit genocide on a massive scale if they held power and there was no one who could really stop them. 

 

What they are doing in the West Bank is hunting down the people who supported the attack on them. What do you mean by no justification? They were brutally attacked and are going to do whatever it takes to ensure Hamas is never able to organize such an attack again. Yes, civilians are dying, and that's terrible, but they ABSOLUTELY have justification to do what they are doing. That's like claiming America had no right to overthrow the Taliban after 9/11 - it's a ridiculous statement on its face. 

 

Isreal was already living in peace, so to say they aren't interested in peace is absolute crap. They were sending money and aid to Gaza, and they gave land back even after being relentlessly attacked for years.  Then when things finally settled down, they left them alone.  They also agreed to the two-state solution, which is what led to the Hamas rise to power in the first place because there was a large segment of Palestinians - 70% who weren't interested in a peace deal. If the Palestenians wanted peace, there would have been peace for a long time now, and that's just a fact.  Instead, Hamas used those years of relative stability to plan a gruesome attack where a man called back to his parents to brag that he killed ten people with his bare hands - and they celebrated together.  I mean, seriously, how many suicide attacks, bombings, assassinations, and rocket attacks have to occur before Israel is justified to respond with military force?

 

For all the peaceheads out there, I would love to know what the appropriate alternative would be.  People act like Israel should either just turn the other cheek or go into one of the most densely populated areas on the planet and not bomb anything. Just go in and precision strike only the Hamas fighters but leave everyone else alone! Anyone who knows anything about warfare knows that's not how it works. It's fantasy land stuff. 

 

I agree that both sides need new leaders, but your attempt to create this false symmetry is just wrong IMO.  There is no question whatsoever who holds the moral high ground here, and there is no question whatsoever who is justified and who isn't.  

[El Guapo]

9 hours ago, Starkiller said:

Too bad we don’t have some sort of deal with Iran that would have kept them from developing nukes, right? I mean, that would have been a great idea…

You are an idiot if you think that deal was not a financial boon to Iran. Only you and a few blithering fools cling to this stupid idea.

[El Guapo]

21 minutes ago, Justafan said:

I agree that it's not in their best interest to commit genocide which would ostracize them from the world. I don't think that's the only reason they aren't doing it, though, and that is my point. If that was really their main goal, they absolutely could. 

 

If Hamas held power, there would be no Jews in Israel. One way or another. You can claim that's not true all you like, but I've been over there, and I've seen what extremists do to kids who are trying to go to school or groups they don't like who just want to live a peaceful existence in their proximity. Israeli leaders may throw out some empty rhetoric like all political leaders, especially those who got elected by promising to keep their citizens safe from the threats you mentioned on all sides, but that's politicians doing what politicians do. It's absolute BS to equate that to what Hamas leaders have said and done. It's not the same as what Hamas leaders have said and demonstrated, and it is 100% false equivalency to pretend it is.  There is NO doubt, and I mean ZERO, that Hamas would commit genocide on a massive scale if they held power and there was no one who could really stop them. 

 

What they are doing in the West Bank is hunting down the people who supported the attack on them. What do you mean by no justification? They were brutally attacked and are going to do whatever it takes to ensure Hamas is never able to organize such an attack again. Yes, civilians are dying, and that's terrible, but they ABSOLUTELY have justification to do what they are doing. That's like claiming America had no right to overthrow the Taliban after 9/11 - it's a ridiculous statement on its face. 

 

Isreal was already living in peace, so to say they aren't interested in peace is absolute crap. They were sending money and aid to Gaza, and they gave land back even after being relentlessly attacked for years.  Then when things finally settled down, they left them alone.  They also agreed to the two-state solution, which is what led to the Hamas rise to power in the first place because there was a large segment of Palestinians - 70% who weren't interested in a peace deal. If the Palestenians wanted peace, there would have been peace for a long time now, and that's just a fact.  Instead, Hamas used those years of relative stability to plan a gruesome attack where a man called back to his parents to brag that he killed ten people with his bare hands - and they celebrated together.  I mean, seriously, how many suicide attacks, bombings, assassinations, and rocket attacks have to occur before Israel is justified to respond with military force?

 

For all the peaceheads out there, I would love to know what the appropriate alternative would be.  People act like Israel should either just turn the other cheek or go into one of the most densely populated areas on the planet and not bomb anything. Just go in and precision strike only the Hamas fighters but leave everyone else alone! Anyone who knows anything about warfare knows that's not how it works. It's fantasy land stuff. 

 

I agree that both sides need new leaders, but your attempt to create this false symmetry is just wrong IMO.  There is no question whatsoever who holds the moral high ground here, and there is no question whatsoever who is justified and who isn't.  

It really is idiocy and an impossible insistence that civilians not be hurt. Admirable and minimizing injuries is commendable but ultimately you are trying to kill the enemy that doesnt fight in the open and hides behind civilians. 

[tgo]

2 hours ago, IrishTitansFan said:

Easy answer: David Collier the Tommy Robinson supporting Nazi! (Who TGO just cited again)

 

Just changed the source to another source citing the same accurate information so as not to secondarily link to a problematic account.

[tgo]

2 hours ago, IrishTitansFan said:

Israel could not wipe out Palestine without losing their main benefactors and supporters, which would then leave them hopelessly exposed around Islamist aggressors along with creating many more terrorist groups

 

Palestinians would not kill all of the jews in a two state solution. Complete scare mongering. Israels military leaders have also shouted about wiping out all Palestinians, Netanyahu himself called the kids in Gaza children of the devil. Of course they won't be able to wipe out all Palestinians. Both sides have lunatics with pent up anger but it doesn't mean half of what they say would come to fruition

 

Israel are not terrorists insofar as they aren't Muslim and they don't have a recognised army so to the west they aren't. But what they're doing now is organised terrorism, especially the stuff with no justification in the west bank.

 

And no, Israel have little to no interest in brokering any peaceful solution that doesn't involve them annexing more land and slowly eroding Palestine until it doesn't exist, Netanyahu and their far right government has been pretty clear on that

 

Both sides desperately need new leadership who are willing to come together and broker a two state solution but the propsects aren't good

 

Uhhhh - the majority of Palestinians would not want Jews in their territory at all.

 

There's a reason why the Jewish population is zero or near zero in so many Muslim countries.

[IrishTitansFan]

49 minutes ago, Justafan said:

I agree that it's not in their best interest to commit genocide which would ostracize them from the world. I don't think that's the only reason they aren't doing it, though, and that is my point. If that was really their main goal, they absolutely could. 

 

If Hamas held power, there would be no Jews in Israel. One way or another. You can claim that's not true all you like, but I've been over there, and I've seen what extremists do to kids who are trying to go to school or groups they don't like who just want to live a peaceful existence in their proximity. Israeli leaders may throw out some empty rhetoric like all political leaders, especially those who got elected by promising to keep their citizens safe from the threats you mentioned on all sides, but that's politicians doing what politicians do. It's absolute BS to equate that to what Hamas leaders have said and done. It's not the same as what Hamas leaders have said and demonstrated, and it is 100% false equivalency to pretend it is.  There is NO doubt, and I mean ZERO, that Hamas would commit genocide on a massive scale if they held power and there was no one who could really stop them. 

 

What they are doing in the West Bank is hunting down the people who supported the attack on them. What do you mean by no justification? They were brutally attacked and are going to do whatever it takes to ensure Hamas is never able to organize such an attack again. Yes, civilians are dying, and that's terrible, but they ABSOLUTELY have justification to do what they are doing. That's like claiming America had no right to overthrow the Taliban after 9/11 - it's a ridiculous statement on its face. 

 

Isreal was already living in peace, so to say they aren't interested in peace is absolute crap. They were sending money and aid to Gaza, and they gave land back even after being relentlessly attacked for years.  Then when things finally settled down, they left them alone.  They also agreed to the two-state solution, which is what led to the Hamas rise to power in the first place because there was a large segment of Palestinians - 70% who weren't interested in a peace deal. If the Palestenians wanted peace, there would have been peace for a long time now, and that's just a fact.  Instead, Hamas used those years of relative stability to plan a gruesome attack where a man called back to his parents to brag that he killed ten people with his bare hands - and they celebrated together.  I mean, seriously, how many suicide attacks, bombings, assassinations, and rocket attacks have to occur before Israel is justified to respond with military force?

 

For all the peaceheads out there, I would love to know what the appropriate alternative would be.  People act like Israel should either just turn the other cheek or go into one of the most densely populated areas on the planet and not bomb anything. Just go in and precision strike only the Hamas fighters but leave everyone else alone! Anyone who knows anything about warfare knows that's not how it works. It's fantasy land stuff. 

 

I agree that both sides need new leaders, but your attempt to create this false symmetry is just wrong IMO.  There is no question whatsoever who holds the moral high ground here, and there is no question whatsoever who is justified and who isn't.  

Except thats' not what you said.. You said Palestinians would kill all jews and want no part of a peaceful solution. This is demonstrably false. Hamas rule over one area of Palestine and even they have walked back the take that their mission is to wipe out the jews. Hamas absolutely must be removed but saying that giving Palestine independence would result in them trying to kill all Jews is scaremongering. The Palestinian people would quickly get behind a two state solution if Israel made real steps towards it, that is pretty obvious to me if you follow the decline in support since Israels brutal apartheid in Gaza and the West Bank began. There was strong support for a two state solution prior to all this. Of course support has declined when all young Palestinians see is the IDF murdering their people and taking their land

 

"Israel was living in peace" LOL! Yeah great to live in peace when you keep millions in an open air prison, controlling everything they import/export and use. That's like saying a domestic abuser is living in peace because the woman hasn't hit back

 

And Israelis have been ploughing down Palestinian monuments and burial sites in the West Bank, they shoot kids who throw stones at them. They're annexing territories and inserting Israeli settlers. This is well documented. They're getting those damn Hamas terrorists!!

[IrishTitansFan]

17 minutes ago, tgo said:

 

Uhhhh - the majority of Palestinians would not want Jews in their territory at all.

 

There's a reason why the Jewish population is zero or near zero in so many Muslim countries.

That's a seperate thing to saying categorically Palestinians would kill all Jews

 

Absolutely a two state solution would require dual citizenship IMO and Jewish people should be strongly protected if they wished to live in Palestine

Edited November 20, 2023 by IrishTitansFan

[Justafan]

1 minute ago, IrishTitansFan said:

Except thats' not what you said.. You said Palestinians would kill all jews and want no part of a peaceful solution. This is demonstrably false. Hamas rule over one area of Palestine and even they have walked back the take that their mission is to wipe out the jews. Hamas absolutely must be removed but saying that giving Palestine independence would result in them trying to kill all Jews is scaremongering. The Palestinian people would quickly get behind a two state solution if Israel made real steps towards it, that is pretty obvious to me if you follow the decline in support since Israels brutal apartheid in Gaza and the West Bank began. There was strong support for a two state solution prior to all this. Of course support has declined when all young Palestinians see is the IDF murdering their people and taking their land

 

"Israel was living in peace" LOL! Yeah great to live in peace when you keep millions in an open air prison, controlling everything they import/export and use. That's like saying a domestic abuser is living in peace because the woman hasn't hit back

 

And Israelis have been ploughing down Palestinian monuments and burial sites in the West Bank, they shoot kids who throw stones at them. They're annexing territories and inserting Israeli settlers. This is well documented. They're getting those damn Hamas terrorists!!

Your takes are heavily slanted here.  I said if the power roles were reversed, not if the Palestenians had their own area.  The Palestenians effectively already had their own area, and Jews were not welcome there. 

 

It's absolutely false to say there was widespread support for a two-state solution. Please feel free to point to the evidence of that - was that before, during, or after their months and years-long planning of the most brutal attack in Israel's modern history?

 

It's hilarious that you would call an open-air prison an area that Israel doesn't even control on all sides. They cut off the flow of Palestinians into the rest of Isreal because of all of the attacks and as punishment for voting in Hamas - who they considered with good reason to be a terrorist group. Gee, maybe they were concerned that someone might come in and attack civilians at a music festival or something. 

 

Annexing territories?  It's their territory.  The Palestinian population has grown from 800,000 to 2.8 million under Israeli governance.  How many Jews live in Syria and Lebanon? They used to be there. Why aren't they there now?  The same ideology that fueled ISIS fuels Hamas.  You saw what they did to 'infidels,' right?  Where is the disconnect?

 

I think you're getting some pretty skewed facts from somewhere, and maybe you should go double-check them. 

[IrishTitansFan]

4 minutes ago, Justafan said:

Your takes are heavily slanted here.  I said if the power roles were reversed, not if the Palestenians had their own area.  The Palestenians effectively already had their own area, and Jews were not welcome there. 

 

It's absolutely false to say there was widespread support for a two-state solution. Please feel free to point to the evidence of that - was that before, during, or after their months and years-long planning of the most brutal attack in Israel's modern history?

 

It's hilarious that you would call an open-air prison an area that Israel doesn't even control on all sides. They cut off the flow of Palestinians into the rest of Isreal because of all of the attacks and as punishment for voting in Hamas - who they considered with good reason to be a terrorist group. Gee, maybe they were concerned that someone might come in and attack civilians at a music festival or something. 

 

Annexing territories?  It's their territory.  The Palestinian population has grown from 800,000 to 2.8 million under Israeli governance.  How many Jews live in Syria and Lebanon? They used to be there. Why aren't they there now?  The same ideology that fueled ISIS fuels Hamas.  You saw what they did to 'infidels,' right?  Where is the disconnect?

 

I think you're getting some pretty skewed facts from somewhere, and maybe you should go double-check them. 

Uh no, you said  "The Palestenians would kill ALL of the Jews. ". Hamas does not equal the Palestinians 

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20080405210125/http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/137.php?nid=&id=&pnt=137&lb=brme

 

"The poll found that 72% of the Palestinians indicate readiness to move beyond the cycle of violence if Israel will agree to a settlement that includes the establishment of a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders."

 

LOL someone needs to get their facts straight and it aint me, it's really easy to look up how much of a stranglehold Israel have on Gaza. They control everything they import and export and this has been deemed in and of itself as an act of war and collective punishment by various Human Rights Groups

 

You think the West Bank is Israeli territory? Well then we will never agree

 

And if Hamas = Isis then why did Israel aid ISIS and provide them and other Syrian militants with arms?

[Justafan]

4 minutes ago, IrishTitansFan said:

Uh no, you said  "The Palestenians would kill ALL of the Jews. ". Hamas does not equal the Palestinians 

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20080405210125/http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/137.php?nid=&id=&pnt=137&lb=brme

 

"The poll found that 72% of the Palestinians indicate readiness to move beyond the cycle of violence if Israel will agree to a settlement that includes the establishment of a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders."

 

LOL someone needs to get their facts straight and it aint me, it's really easy to look up how much of a stranglehold Israel have on Gaza. They control everything they import and export and this has been deemed in and of itself as an act of war and collective punishment by various Human Rights Groups

 

You think the West Bank is Israeli territory? Well then we will never agree

 

And if Hamas = Isis then why did Israel aid ISIS and provide them and other Syrian militants with arms?

I agree that Hamas does not equal ALL Palestinians, but it is their ELECTED governance. This poll is ridiculous. It's from 2002 - before Palestenians voted Hamas into power as a resistance to the peace movement. So yes, some Palestenians want peace. My heart goes out to them. Some Israelis want peace and didn't ask to be attacked relentlessly for nearly 100 years. It's a terrible situation, but your attempt to equalize both sides and paint Israel as the primary aggressor is just flat-out false. 

 

You're right. We will never agree on this stuff because you have it in your mind that Palestenians are victims, and so you are trying to find facts that support your point of view. 

 

I didn't say Hamas = ISIS. You have a habit of misinterpreting what I say to make an argument against a position I don't hold. I said it's the same ideology - meaning they all are Sunni Muslims.  Now as far as Isreal supporting ISIS, you probably refer to them helping resistance fighters to Syria's government - you know their enemies.

 

I mean, seriously, this stuff isn't that hard if you don't try to warp facts to fit some weird narrative where suicide bombers become victims somehow. 

 

What we can agree on is that Israel deserves criticism for their heavy-handed military tactics, even if we disagree on their justification for military force. We can agree that children don't deserve to die, and we can agree that talking is the best path toward a peaceful resolution, even if I see that as an impossibility at the moment, given the current state of affairs. Hopefully, a two-state resolution will be the best option eventually, and we can hope for that eventual outcome. 

 

I refuse to condemn Israel, though, based on the situation, and I will absolutely condemn Hamas because there is a difference, and I'm sorry, nothing you've said convinces me there is any reason whatsoever to question that belief.  

[Starkiller]

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

You are an idiot if you think that deal was not a financial boon to Iran. Only you and a few blithering fools cling to this stupid idea.

You are an idiot if you think it matters more that it was a financial boon to Iran than Iran having nukes!

[IrishTitansFan]

15 minutes ago, Justafan said:

I agree that Hamas does not equal ALL Palestinians, but it is their ELECTED governance. This poll is ridiculous. It's from 2002 - before Palestenians voted Hamas into power as a resistance to the peace movement. So yes, some Palestenians want peace. My heart goes out to them. Some Israelis want peace and didn't ask to be attacked relentlessly for nearly 100 years. It's a terrible situation, but your attempt to equalize both sides and paint Israel as the primary aggressor is just flat-out false. 

 

You're right. We will never agree on this stuff because you have it in your mind that Palestenians are victims, and so you are trying to find facts that support your point of view. 

 

I didn't say Hamas = ISIS. You have a habit of misinterpreting what I say to make an argument against a position I don't hold. I said it's the same ideology - meaning they all are Sunni Muslims.  Now as far as Isreal supporting ISIS, you probably refer to them helping resistance fighters to Syria's government - you know their enemies.

 

I mean, seriously, this stuff isn't that hard if you don't try to warp facts to fit some weird narrative where suicide bombers become victims somehow. 

 

What we can agree on is that Israel deserves criticism for their heavy-handed military tactics, even if we disagree on their justification for military force. We can agree that children don't deserve to die, and we can agree that talking is the best path toward a peaceful resolution, even if I see that as an impossibility at the moment, given the current state of affairs. Hopefully, a two-state resolution will be the best option eventually, and we can hope for that eventual outcome. 

 

I refuse to condemn Israel, though, based on the situation, and I will absolutely condemn Hamas because there is a difference, and I'm sorry, nothing you've said convinces me there is any reason whatsoever to question that belief.  

They elected them 17 years ago. Over 40% of the Palestinian population are under 18. You can imagine how small the percentage of people who were of voting age and who voted for Hamas are now

 

And yes it was in 2002, that was my entire point. I wonder why that support has eroded? Has anything happened in Gaza to change that I wonder? It's still over 70% in the West Bank

 

Of course Palestinians are victims. They are victims of a terrorist authoritarian state that use them as human shields, and they are victims of brutal oppressors who would like to see them wiped off their lands or off the face of the earth altogether. It's a horrific situation they're in

 

A two-state solution would be great, but Israel in it's current guise absolutely deserve widespread condemnation as they are a far right Authoritarian government who are committing mass war crimes on a daily basis against the Palestinians, and eroding their own peoples rights. There's a reason Netanyahu is so unpopular amongst the Israeli people, they need International support to get rid of him and anyone with his ideology

[Little Earl]

3 hours ago, Starkiller said:

You are an idiot if you think it matters more that it was a financial boon to Iran than Iran having nukes!

 

You're an idiot if you think the deal would have stopped them from developing nukes.

[Justafan]

3 hours ago, IrishTitansFan said:

They elected them 17 years ago. Over 40% of the Palestinian population are under 18. You can imagine how small the percentage of people who were of voting age and who voted for Hamas are now

 

And yes it was in 2002, that was my entire point. I wonder why that support has eroded? Has anything happened in Gaza to change that I wonder? It's still over 70% in the West Bank

 

Of course Palestinians are victims. They are victims of a terrorist authoritarian state that use them as human shields, and they are victims of brutal oppressors who would like to see them wiped off their lands or off the face of the earth altogether. It's a horrific situation they're in

 

A two-state solution would be great, but Israel in it's current guise absolutely deserve widespread condemnation as they are a far right Authoritarian government who are committing mass war crimes on a daily basis against the Palestinians, and eroding their own peoples rights. There's a reason Netanyahu is so unpopular amongst the Israeli people, they need International support to get rid of him and anyone with his ideology

I'm sorry, I know you're a smart guy, and I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but this is a laughable take. It might be a right-wing government, but it was democratically elected and elected just last year. 

 

Some Palestinians are victims.  But generalizing and saying all Palestinians are victims the way you are trying to paint them is an absolute disconnect with reality. You pretend like in 2002, that the Palestinians wanted peace and the Israelis were holding up the deal.  In reality, Israel had already agreed to the deal, and Palestinian partisans murdered both Israeli citizens and their political opposition in Gaza to undermine the peace talks.  In 2006 a majority of Palestenians voted in Hamas, knowing full well what their intentions were. Relations have worsened over time, so to pretend like it's some tiny minority that supports Hamas and what they are doing/have done is simply false. 

 

Trying to paint Israel as perpetrators of genocide is absolute nonsense.