Hamas Brutally Massacres Scores of Civilians: Israel Turns Genocidal

[tgo]

Anyway - back to the coverage of the war itself - 

 

Footage from the IDF - so make sure to apply scrutiny and personal sensitivities as needed when viewing. 

[Starkiller]

18 minutes ago, tgo said:

 
It was only “someone else’s land” because they took it from someone who took it from someone who took it from the Jews in the first place. 
 

If the Palestinians “never stop fighting”, scores more of them will die until their cause is depleted. They are the decidedly weaker party in this tribal conflict. 

The biblical Israelites took it from someone else, too. If the basis for the claim of the land of Israel is that they conquered it from the Canaanites then losing it militarily should also be taken into account, no?
 

Jews are taught that Israel was the Promised Land, but this seems to argue that God was on their side and would protect them. The facts show that they lost many wars to their more powerful neighbors over the centuries before eventually being cast out. 
 

Nothing here supports the claim of Jews to own the land over the Palestinians. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Starkiller

[tgo]

17 minutes ago, IrishTitansFan said:

If you’re finding yourself overwhelmingly on the side of far right Neo nazis then maybe it’s time to reevaluate 

 

I understand looking at it with a lot of nuance but jeez

 

Irish,

 

If I was on the side of the far right on this conflict- I wouldn't be adamant about a two state solution and a Free Palestinian State, nor would I be in full agreement with you guys about protecting civilian lives and allowing humanitarian aid.

[OILERMAN]

5 minutes ago, tgo said:

 nor would I be in full agreement with you guys about protecting civilian lives and allowing humanitarian aid.

 

Is this really something to brag about

[tgo]

9 minutes ago, Starkiller said:

The biblical Israelites took it from someone else, too. If the basis for the claim of the land of Israel is that they conquered it from the Canaanites then losing it militarily should also be taken into account, no?
 

Jews are taught that Israel was the Promised Land, but this seems to argue that God was on their side and would protect them. The facts show that they lost many wars to their more powerful neighbors over the centuries before eventually being cast out. 
 

Nothing here supports the claim of Jews to own the land over the Palestinians. 

 

According to the Bible yes, but that isn't actually true (given that most things in the Bible are not true) according to most expert historians on the subject. Most say that the Jewish tribe essentially evolved as a separatist sect of Canaanites (I guess they may have made war against other sects, who knows).

 

No idea if god was on their side at the time, but God (AKA the United States of America) is now on their side and that will be determinative in the conflict.

Edited November 11, 2023 by tgo

[Jamalisms]

3 hours ago, tgo said:

I’m not talking about any particular instance or story, the details of which aren’t lies regardless of the outlet. I’m talking about the overall tone and objective of their narrative on this conflict. 

 

I think it's fair that I try to explain my concern. This is probably a poor explanation and it's way too long-winded and no attempted explaining is ever rewarded on this website but I'm willing to try because I do think it's important. It should go without saying but my concern is not going to be a full and perfectly fair picture of everything you believe, however it's what I'm seeing start to develop not just with you but with others. It's probably more of a macro concern than something for you in particular ... but I'll use your opinions because they're easier to reference back to since they're written down.

 

I'll start by restating some things that I think you've been clear on.

 

I think you've been pretty clear regarding how pure the support needs to be for Israel in the tone or content of any source for it to be acceptable. You've been pretty clear multiple times on how you think it's antisemitic not to actively support Zionism. These are positions that are pretty extreme. That doesn't make them wrong, even if they cast many Jewish people as antisemitic as SK has pointed out, but they are on the extreme side of opinion spectrums.

 

I'm going to couple that positioning I see as extreme with one example of how I've seen this manifest in regards to sources and information. You've been pretty clear that the fog of war fully justifies posting sources and information that may or may not be correct ... but you've been open about how you canceled your subscription to (I think) the New York Times because their early reporting on the hospital bombing didn't look accurate. This looks like a pretty easy double standard to me on the outside.

 

It suggests that sources are credible or not credible based on how you feel about the content and not based on the accuracy of the content itself. It's a ruling out of, frankly, a credible source and inclusion of many sources whose credibility is suspect. As far as I can tell, you have an opinion that you simply can't trust mainstream media anymore and so you go out seeking any source that feels right ... even if they're sources you know have been manipulative and one-sided and troublesome in the past, like Fox News.

 

The concern is that this really begins to mirror talking to people who went down a MAGA rabbit hole. Again, I'm lumping you in with others who I've been talking to in my personal life but what begins to crystallize in my experience is that it feels like anything you encounter which might suggest you should question something you believe ... is easily rejected because it's not in alignment with what you believe on this issue. Anything that's not pure support of Israel is the wrong tone and can be tuned out, which means you'll never accept that pure support of Israel in all things might not be appropriate in all things.

 

With people who have gone down the MAGA rabbit hole, there is no central reference point to bring a conversation back to. There's no agreed upon truths there's no source sufficiently credible to dislodge an opinion already held. I truly have begun to see the same signs in conversation with multiple people, yourself included, regarding the Israel-Hamas conduct. Even if there are facts that must be accepted, they're minimized and held aside (yes, they bombed refuge camps and have killed thousands of civilians and break international laws of war. True.  Aaaaaanyway ... they deserve full support).

 

Anyway, like I said, this is the concern I have and it's growing over time because the signs are becoming more clear over time (and not limited to yourself but with others I know). And maybe you read it and you don't see yourself in it and it's just me projecting my fears. Could be, I don't know. I'm sure I'm blind to my own issues but it's a pretty darn strong and worrying comparison based on what I've seen.

[tgo]

@Jamalisms

 

Reading through the rest of your post, I agree it is a psychological danger and I am taking note. I believe generally a lot of the same things you're expressing here when it comes to news sources and scrutinizing information, but maybe I have a blind spot on this and need to be more diligent. Thanks for taking the time to hold me to account in a nuanced and respectful way.

 

It has nothing to do with not "trusting" mainstream media anymore (they *report* facts but also have discretion over what they choose not to report or pursue verifying). I think their reporting is very useful across the board, all of it contains factual information - it just has to do with scrutinizing particular outlets' general ideological position on a given issue along with their overall methodology. With the NYT thing, I was just "voting with my wallet" on this issue and their coverage of Biden so to speak, and I'm sure I'll re-subscribe later on down the road because I believe fundamentally in supporting the free press.

 

When you say Zionism, I think different people seem to have different views on what the term means. I always thought of it as Israeli expansionism into the West Bank, which I am against. But I'm realizing many people see Zionism as the existence and maintenance of the current Jewish State of Israel. That is highly problematic to say the least.

 

I just think that's settled history now. The Israelis should have their own Democratic state with the current borders (without expanding into the West Bank any further) and they should be able to live without fear in their state. The Palestinians should also have their own state, to live without fear and with their own measures of security, HQ'd in the West Bank but eventually also encompassing the people of Gaza and the sovereign governance thereof.

 

I think that is some combination of the morally right approach and an actual pragmatic/practical forward-looking approach. (Unfortunately Iran has their own meddling geopolitical objectives in the region which interferes with this outcome).

 

I don't like Netanyahu, don't like his lust for personal power, don't like his corruption, and don't like his far right form of government (I do acknowledge that there are many Israeli politicians far more extreme than him, that he keeps in check).

 

I don't think support for Israel should be "unconditional" - I think the United States should both fully support Israel in their mission against Hamas and to protect their democratic state as well use their leverage to exact better humanitarian outcomes in this conflict and to reel Israel back when the time is right.

 

I also recognize that a ceasefire right now is totally untenable from a practical point of view, and that destroying Hamas is a righteous objective and moral imperative. They should fulfill this objective with the protection of innocents at the forefront of mind - however many IDF soldiers will undoubtedly have tribal hate in their heart because of what happened and will not restrain themselves professionally, and that is to be condemned wholesale.

Edited November 11, 2023 by tgo

[Jamalisms]

I appreciate you taking that post for what it was. Would've been real easy to roll your eyes, say I'm an over-dramatic loser and move on.

 

But it's a real concern on this issue in general.

[Jamalisms]

Also, I'm less trying to hold you to account and more explaining something that I've referenced and/or said. I've seen others suggest it as well. Just seemed fair to explain it if I'm going to hit you with it, so to speak.

 

You can hold yourself to account to whatever standard works for you, though.

[reo]

2 hours ago, tgo said:

 

Irish,

 

If I was on the side of the far right on this conflict- I wouldn't be adamant about a two state solution and a Free Palestinian State, nor would I be in full agreement with you guys about protecting civilian lives and allowing humanitarian aid.

 

Not sure if that's his point or not as I haven't paid much attention but I'd mostly be worried about the possibility of propaganda and over blown bullshot if you're getting into far right stuff. 

[IrishTitansFan]

 

 

[tgo]

1 hour ago, IrishTitansFan said:

 

 

My hope would be that Israel stops at occupying Northern Gaza, not going any further South, and then ultimately transfers governance to an international body or the Palestinian Authority once the area is secured (but they’ll have to be pushed into it).

Edited November 11, 2023 by tgo

[Little Earl]

22 hours ago, tgo said:

 

According to the Bible yes, but that isn't actually true (given that most things in the Bible are not true) according to most expert historians on the subject. 

That is pure nonsense.   Most historians do not say that, and they have yet to prove anything false.   

[tgo]

 

[tgo]