Hamas Brutally Massacres Scores of Civilians: Israel Turns Genocidal

[Justafan]

16 minutes ago, Titans279 said:

Kinda curious, what do people see as the resolution to his flare up to be? Not that there has to be a resolution to the conflict itself, but what's the end to this chapter and how long does it take?

Personally, I think Israel will keep going, regardless of pressure to cease from the outside world, until they completely control Gaza militarily and can enforce a no weapons ban. I foresee them dismantling Hamas as a political entity and occupying the area by military force for the foreseeable future. They might even dismantle the PA as well and setup their own system to ensure the Palestinians don't just install another group of leaders who see and think the same way. 

 

Ideally, both sides would agree to a two state solution but the Palestinians have had every opportunity to do that and they rejected it every time because 'river to the sea' and the Israelis will not be satisfied with any solution that leaves a hostile Palestinian population self-governed on their border that has consistently said it's only objective is the end of the state of Israel and removal of ALL Jews from the region. 

 

It's much more complicated than that but that's about as detailed as I can get on a forum. I doubt there is any easy solution in the near future, probably not even in our lifetime. Things change, but only if people want them to. 

[Little Earl]

1 hour ago, Justafan said:

Personally, I think Israel will keep going, regardless of pressure to cease from the outside world, until they completely control Gaza militarily and can enforce a no weapons ban. I foresee them dismantling Hamas as a political entity and occupying the area by military force for the foreseeable future. They might even dismantle the PA as well and setup their own system to ensure the Palestinians don't just install another group of leaders who see and think the same way. 

 

Ideally, both sides would agree to a two state solution but the Palestinians have had every opportunity to do that and they rejected it every time because 'river to the sea' and the Israelis will not be satisfied with any solution that leaves a hostile Palestinian population self-governed on their border that has consistently said it's only objective is the end of the state of Israel and removal of ALL Jews from the region. 

 

It's much more complicated than that but that's about as detailed as I can get on a forum. I doubt there is any easy solution in the near future, probably not even in our lifetime. Things change, but only if people want them to. 

 

Also Egypt and Jordan have refused to take over those territories, so those options are off the table.   No Arab country wants them, given their violent history.   Kuwait kicked them out after they supported Saddam Hussein's invasion.  Jordan kicked them out after they attempted to assassinate their leader.   Until they give up 'from the river to the sea', they shouldn't have their own state.   And as long as they support terrorist organizations like HAMAS, they are not innocent civilians.

[tgo]

 

[IsntLifeFunny]

2 hours ago, Little Earl said:

 

Also Egypt and Jordan have refused to take over those territories, so those options are off the table.   No Arab country wants them, given their violent history.   Kuwait kicked them out after they supported Saddam Hussein's invasion.  Jordan kicked them out after they attempted to assassinate their leader.   Until they give up 'from the river to the sea', they shouldn't have their own state.   And as long as they support terrorist organizations like HAMAS, they are not innocent civilians.

Not that I disagree with most of this, but of course many are innocent civilians. Half of their population are under the age of 18. I'm guessing it's their fault they were born in Gaza. 

[Justafan]

22 minutes ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

Not that I disagree with most of this, but of course many are innocent civilians. Half of their population are under the age of 18. I'm guessing it's their fault they were born in Gaza. 

I don't know how many are truly innocent. My gut tells me not that many, but it's not fair to blanket state they are all terrorists because it can't be true and some are just too young to even understand what is happening.  My heart really does go out to the innocent ones because they are in an impossible situation. I remember in Afghanistan, I kept thinking .... if this was my life... I would do anything, and I mean anything to get myself and my family out. They don't deserve to die just because they were born in the wrong place or had the wrong parents. 

 

Having said that, there are rocket attacks from 'civilian' safe zones constantly, weapons caches and hidden areas discovered in 'civilian' areas, and instead of turning the Hamas fighters in, 'civilians' have constantly denied the truth and covered for them whenever possible. If they are supporting Hamas or acting as combatants or actively lying to help shield them with humans... that's fair game IMO. 

[IsntLifeFunny]

34 minutes ago, Justafan said:

I don't know how many are truly innocent. My gut tells me not that many, but it's not fair to blanket state they are all terrorists because it can't be true and some are just too young to even understand what is happening.  My heart really does go out to the innocent ones because they are in an impossible situation. I remember in Afghanistan, I kept thinking .... if this was my life... I would do anything, and I mean anything to get myself and my family out. They don't deserve to die just because they were born in the wrong place or had the wrong parents. 

 

Having said that, there are rocket attacks from 'civilian' safe zones constantly, weapons caches and hidden areas discovered in 'civilian' areas, and instead of turning the Hamas fighters in, 'civilians' have constantly denied the truth and covered for them whenever possible. If they are supporting Hamas or acting as combatants or actively lying to help shield them with humans... that's fair game IMO. 

You've been in situations I can't imagine, and in those situations you've had to imagine things about others I can't imagine to an even greater extent...if that makes any sense. I can't say what's right and wrong in this situation. It's a really tough one in a condensed area with a ton of young kids who even if they can be armed they have no idea what they're even fighting for. 

 

I saw a video the other day of Hamas stealing a supply truck loaded with food and the people ran after them and gathered the scraps. It isn't black and white and what we do know is Hamas are the ones with the guns, so it becomes hard to identify wiling culprits versus those who are basically held hostage to their situation and surroundings. 

 

I'm not alleviating Palestinians by saying that or judging Israel for retaliating in the manner they have. It just makes me sad all the senseless killing all over the world for the benefit of very few and the detriment of so many. 

 

I do find it interesting how much coverage this has received versus the countless slaughters in Africa and South America. We don't care much about that stuff and neither does the rest of the world. There aren't any good answers and probably there never will be. It's why even though I disagree with our bloated military budget I understand it and appreciate that we bring the fight elsewhere and keep it off our soil. 

[tgo]

 

[Justafan]

16 minutes ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

You've been in situations I can't imagine, and in those situations you've had to imagine things about others I can't imagine to an even greater extent...if that makes any sense. I can't say what's right and wrong in this situation. It's a really tough one in a condensed area with a ton of young kids who even if they can be armed they have no idea what they're even fighting for. 

 

I saw a video the other day of Hamas stealing a supply truck loaded with food and the people ran after them and gathered the scraps. It isn't black and white and what we do know is Hamas are the ones with the guns, so it becomes hard to identify wiling culprits versus those who are basically held hostage to their situation and surroundings. 

 

I'm not alleviating Palestinians by saying that or judging Israel for retaliating in the manner they have. It just makes me sad all the senseless killing all over the world for the benefit of very few and the detriment of so many. 

 

I do find it interesting how much coverage this has received versus the countless slaughters in Africa and South America. We don't care much about that stuff and neither does the rest of the world. There aren't any good answers and probably there never will be. It's why even though I disagree with our bloated military budget I understand it and appreciate that we bring the fight elsewhere and keep it off our soil. 

Insurgents in Iraq would kidnap a family. Then they would tell Dad to be a martyr and blow up civilians (Or us), and they would take of the family. Refuse, and they would cut his daughter's head off while he watched and then rape his wife before killing him. I was one of the first on the scene of a suicide attack where someone walked into a crowd of people with vests and killed over 50 people. There were just chunks of meat that used to be people everywhere. There was a Reuters reporter embedded with them for three weeks who knew the attack was going to happen and didn't report it - but definitely reported the story after. The Kurdish pesh with us were going to murder him right there, but we stopped it. They took seriously mentally ill people and strapped vests on them, then marched them into the market and detonated the vests when enough people got close. I remember seeing families burning on the side of the road for no reason at all. In Afghanistan, we spent over a month tracking down a cell that went into a school and horrifically murdered all of the kids there because they warned them not to go to school.

 

I could tell many more and worse stories, but I won't. You get the point, and no one needs that in their life. 

 

That's the kind of people the Israelis are dealing with and the kind of people that have been putting pressure on young impressionable palestenians to fight in a war they couldn't possibly understand. 

 

Hopefully, that gives a little insight into why I get so frustrated when some of these stories come out and the slants that get put on them. 

[chef]

1 hour ago, Justafan said:

Insurgents in Iraq would kidnap a family. Then they would tell Dad to be a martyr and blow up civilians (Or us), and they would take of the family. Refuse, and they would cut his daughter's head off while he watched and then rape his wife before killing him. I was one of the first on the scene of a suicide attack where someone walked into a crowd of people with vests and killed over 50 people. There were just chunks of meat that used to be people everywhere. There was a Reuters reporter embedded with them for three weeks who knew the attack was going to happen and didn't report it - but definitely reported the story after. The Kurdish pesh with us were going to murder him right there, but we stopped it. They took seriously mentally ill people and strapped vests on them, then marched them into the market and detonated the vests when enough people got close. I remember seeing families burning on the side of the road for no reason at all. In Afghanistan, we spent over a month tracking down a cell that went into a school and horrifically murdered all of the kids there because they warned them not to go to school.

 

I could tell many more and worse stories, but I won't. You get the point, and no one needs that in their life. 

 

That's the kind of people the Israelis are dealing with and the kind of people that have been putting pressure on young impressionable palestenians to fight in a war they couldn't possibly understand. 

 

Hopefully, that gives a little insight into why I get so frustrated when some of these stories come out and the slants that get put on them. 

 

 

I don't pretend to get it, but following talks with my cousin who was in Iraq on a high level clearance security detail (AF Spec Ops), what he had to go through, how he went and how he came back..... all I know is that I'm not no position to play Monday morning arm chair QB and judge someone's actions in the heat of the moment during conflicts of this nature.

 

Other core take aways that I keep at hand when reading news of war zones like Gaza:

 

* I try to separate decisions of politicians and often military leaders from what soldiers end up doing for better and worse.  more of a disconnect there than gets acknowledged by the media

 

* majority of enlisted in at least the US military and I would assume so for solid % of the world do so with the idea of helping or at least protecting people. sure there are a few psychos in the mix looking to fire that rifle, but that's not the typical person at all.   so many I have talked with who went to Afghan/Iraq with high hopes and big hearts came backed crushed ... wondering what if anything they accomplished, living through what you just described, experiencing that sad disregard for human life

 

 

bottom line I tend to judge troops including those like the IDF through a very different lens than say Netanyahu, and realize at the same time once the shit starts flying a lot of things that happen on any side no matter how horrific the outcome were not necessarily planned.  too much chaos to control.

 

[IrishTitansFan]

4 hours ago, chef said:

 

 

I don't pretend to get it, but following talks with my cousin who was in Iraq on a high level clearance security detail (AF Spec Ops), what he had to go through, how he went and how he came back..... all I know is that I'm not no position to play Monday morning arm chair QB and judge someone's actions in the heat of the moment during conflicts of this nature.

 

Other core take aways that I keep at hand when reading news of war zones like Gaza:

 

* I try to separate decisions of politicians and often military leaders from what soldiers end up doing for better and worse.  more of a disconnect there than gets acknowledged by the media

 

* majority of enlisted in at least the US military and I would assume so for solid % of the world do so with the idea of helping or at least protecting people. sure there are a few psychos in the mix looking to fire that rifle, but that's not the typical person at all.   so many I have talked with who went to Afghan/Iraq with high hopes and big hearts came backed crushed ... wondering what if anything they accomplished, living through what you just described, experiencing that sad disregard for human life

 

 

bottom line I tend to judge troops including those like the IDF through a very different lens than say Netanyahu, and realize at the same time once the shit starts flying a lot of things that happen on any side no matter how horrific the outcome were not necessarily planned.  too much chaos to control.

 

That is exactly how I feel about individual soldiers in basically every war and why I quoted Wilfred Owens poem earlier

 

"Bent double, like old beggars under sacks
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime


Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer,
Bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,–
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori"

[tgo]

 

[IsntLifeFunny]

21 hours ago, Justafan said:

Insurgents in Iraq would kidnap a family. Then they would tell Dad to be a martyr and blow up civilians (Or us), and they would take of the family. Refuse, and they would cut his daughter's head off while he watched and then rape his wife before killing him. I was one of the first on the scene of a suicide attack where someone walked into a crowd of people with vests and killed over 50 people. There were just chunks of meat that used to be people everywhere. There was a Reuters reporter embedded with them for three weeks who knew the attack was going to happen and didn't report it - but definitely reported the story after. The Kurdish pesh with us were going to murder him right there, but we stopped it. They took seriously mentally ill people and strapped vests on them, then marched them into the market and detonated the vests when enough people got close. I remember seeing families burning on the side of the road for no reason at all. In Afghanistan, we spent over a month tracking down a cell that went into a school and horrifically murdered all of the kids there because they warned them not to go to school.

 

I could tell many more and worse stories, but I won't. You get the point, and no one needs that in their life. 

 

That's the kind of people the Israelis are dealing with and the kind of people that have been putting pressure on young impressionable palestenians to fight in a war they couldn't possibly understand. 

 

Hopefully, that gives a little insight into why I get so frustrated when some of these stories come out and the slants that get put on them. 

Jesus Christ mate. Whew. Thank you for your service and I hope whatever happened over there you have some peace. People are really fucked up world wide.

[El Guapo]

The world is dangerous and applying our standards of ethics and morality to other cultures and assuming all are basically the same is naive and wrong. We learned this grudgingly in WW2.  Insisting that Israel play “fair” from our much safer environs is ridiculous. I prefer the perspective from those with personal knowledge and on this, I defer to Justafan. Everything else is just applying our pre conceived prejudices and preferences to the situation, me included.

[tgo]

 

[tgo]