pat Posted April 5, 2022 Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 Just now, Starkiller said: None of this is happening. Germany is not going to be siding with Putin over NATO. And NATO is not going to just ignore a Russian invasion of another NATO member. Putin tried to break up NATO through Trump. It failed. Now they are on the same page. Hungary is a potential Putin ally, but NATO would kick Hungary out before just allowing Russia to invade the Baltic states. None of this is happening because Biden ignored Putin's threats and instead immediately expedited military aid to Ukraine. The way to stand up to the bully is to stop centering on the aggressor and instead focus on what's right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat Posted April 5, 2022 Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 Biden is avoiding stationing US troops in Ukraine because of US politics, not Russian threats. I guarantee it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reo Posted April 5, 2022 Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, Starkiller said: None of this is happening. Germany is not going to be siding with Putin over NATO. And NATO is not going to just ignore a Russian invasion of another NATO member. Putin tried to break up NATO through Trump. It failed. Now they are on the same page. Hungary is a potential Putin ally, but NATO would kick Hungary out before just allowing Russia to invade the Baltic states. Its not about Germany siding with Putin. Its about freezing them with partisan bickering so they don't have a unified response. Putin is already betting that western resolve will faulture as time goes on. 100% NATO countries are on his list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reo Posted April 5, 2022 Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 22 minutes ago, pat said: Biden is avoiding stationing US troops in Ukraine because of US politics, not Russian threats. I guarantee it. Probably a bit of both. They also think if they fully support Ukraine then Ukraine might be able to handle it.... we'll see. The vid I posted a few pages back on How Russia will die is a really good summary/breakdown on how Russia/Putin operates. ChemEngr79 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reo Posted April 5, 2022 Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 Some good stuff from Peter Zeihan from a few different interviews actually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted April 5, 2022 Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 1 hour ago, pat said: The Russian plan would be to cook NATO a bit longer, keep developing ties with Germany, keep weakening the alliance. And then invade a NATO Baltic state and test Article 5. After doing nothing, NATO would be done. And then a couple more countries get invaded. Appeasement invites more wars by failing to supply appropriate consequences. Like the consequences for invading Ukraine being that all Russian forces on Ukraine soul get wiped out. Wrong. Article 5 is airtight. It's hilarious how off you are about this stuff. Titans279 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reo Posted April 5, 2022 Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) I think this is the full interview but I'm only about 20mins into this one. Hopefully it doesn't link to the middle. I can't tell on mobile. Would be curious to see counter points. As with a lot of these things its hard to tell where facts end and assumptions begin. Edited April 5, 2022 by reo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat Posted April 5, 2022 Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 52 minutes ago, reo said: I think this is the full interview but I'm only about 20mins into this one. Hopefully it doesn't link to the middle. I can't tell on mobile. Would be curious to see counter points. As with a lot of these things its hard to tell where facts end and assumptions begin. It's an interesting listen, thanks. The question I didn't hear was - given the demonstrated performance of their weapon systems in Ukraine, how confident can the Russians be in launching a nuclear strike? How might that affect their decision making? Say there's a 50% chance the order to nuke fails. Maybe the order is disobeyed, maybe the delivery vehicle gets shot down, maybe it malfunctions. Does Russia order a first strike without the confidence that it will hit? That's a question I'm curious about hearing answered by an expert. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Come on Titans Posted April 5, 2022 Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgo Posted April 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 It's choosing time. What kind of nation is The United States in 2022? What will America do in the face of this genocidal brutality? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
headhunter Posted April 5, 2022 Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, tgo said: It's choosing time. What kind of nation is The United States in 2022? What will America do in the face of this genocidal brutality? It's just not up to us. This wouldn't be a swift end to this conflict. Do you want China and North Korea to get involved. Ukraine is putting up a hellava fight. Just give them more supplies sounds better than world war 3. Russias economy will eventually put a stop to this advancement Edited April 5, 2022 by headhunter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgo Posted April 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, headhunter said: It's just not up to us. This wouldn't be a swift end to this conflict. Do you want China and North Korea to get involved. Ukraine is putting up a hellava fight. Just give them more supplies sounds better than world war 3. Russias economy will eventually put a stop to this advancement I'm not saying we get directly involved militarily - I don't know if that's the answer. Maybe it isn't. I know for 100% sure though that we need to be doing a hell of a lot more to help Ukraine with training and advanced weaponry. We have to help them win and not be afraid of them winning and cornering Putin. What we've done so far is great and historic, and we should be proud of our support already. But it isn't enough if Ukraine doesn't win. The French came to our aid and tipped the balance for the US when we were a young democracy fighting to survive in the Revolution. This is a young democracy being attacked by a much worse adversary, a genocidal butcher. We have to tilt the balance fully in their favor - it's our bare minimum moral obligation. Edited April 5, 2022 by tgo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted April 5, 2022 Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, tgo said: It's choosing time. What kind of nation is The United States in 2022? What will America do in the face of this genocidal brutality? I wouldn’t blame anyone for supporting direct military intervention in Ukraine. I supported intervention in the Balkans to stop a genocide and it was absolutely the right decision. The difference is that Slobodan Milosevic didn’t have nukes. Putin does. And I would just assume we don’t risk nuclear conflict. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgo Posted April 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 Just now, Starkiller said: I wouldn’t blame anyone for supporting direct military intervention in Ukraine. I supported intervention in the Balkans to stop a genocide and it was absolutely the right decision. The difference is that Slobodan Milosevic didn’t have nukes. Putin does. And I would just assume we don’t risk nuclear conflict. Maybe we shouldn't risk nuclear conflict, but we need to find that line and we need to push right up to it. I know we're not close to it right now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgo Posted April 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 I think if we're not going to enforce a No Fly Zone, we need to *fully* enable and facilitate Ukraine's ability to do so to the extent logistically possible. IsntLifeFunny 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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