Harrison Butker is a huge idiot

[Starkiller]

5 minutes ago, Justafan said:

Okay, fair but that's where a lot of things stem from and the time when overt racism was prevelant. You still see it but MOST people today are not racist.

How about most Republicans?

[Justafan]

1 minute ago, Starkiller said:

And they are referred to as minorities for a reason. They are a minority of the population.
 

So as long as white people remain the majority and the majority of white racists vote Republican then my point remains the same. So open your eyes and stop both sides-ing everything.

If you're argument is that republicans are predominantly white and so have more white raciats…. 

 

Wow. Anymore unwritten qualifiers? 

[Starkiller]

Just now, Justafan said:

If you're argument is that republicans are predominantly white and so have more white raciats…. 

 

Wow. Anymore unwritten qualifiers? 

I think most racists in America vote Republican. Period. 

[Justafan]

3 minutes ago, Starkiller said:

How about most Republicans?

You have some evidence to back up that claim?

[Starkiller]

Just now, Justafan said:

You have some evidence to back up that claim?

Most Republicans are Trump supporters. Most Trump supporters are racist…

[WG53]

11 minutes ago, Justafan said:

MOST people today are not racist.

I can't really agree with that.

[Justafan]

5 hours ago, Starkiller said:

Most Republicans are Trump supporters. Most Trump supporters are racist…

So… no

[nine]

 

[Justafan]

8 hours ago, WG53 said:

I can't really agree with that.

I mean, that's fine. Do you really believe that more than half of modern Americans are racists? Also, are you referring only to white Americans or do you see racism among minorities as well?

 

I'll fully support the idea that there was a surge in racial rhetoric against minorities and such with the alt-right and rise of Donald Trump. Probably as a direct backlash to President Obama. I'll also say that racism is a problem in America but I would argue less so than in many other countries and that the level of racism from ordinary people is greatly exaggerated by the media and people who profit from stirring up controversy. 

[Starkiller]

3 hours ago, Justafan said:

So… no

You have to be some level of racist to support a guy who does as much racist/xenophobic shit as Trump. People who aren’t racist would have a hard time supporting a racist piece of shit like him. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Justafan said:

I'm not deflecting. I'm certainly not defending Republicans. I am pointing out realities. 

 

I have not used the word Republican for a reason. I am talking about conservative social values, etc. It's pretty clear we have a different perspective/background on social structures, systemic inequalities, power dynamics, what exists and what doesn't. That's fine--I don't think we're going to be able to get on the same page through this medium of discourse. 

 

I am also not trying to say this is about anyone getting their medicine by the way---although I do believe there is some important perspective getting that needs to happen here and needs to happen with idea like canceling for example. 

 

The history of conservatism and how it ties (or doesn't) to specific political parties is something I am well aware of. Conservatives TODAY are closely linked to this iteration of the Republican party--that has not always been the case, however I am speaking more to pockets of socially conservative people, White, heteronormative Christians. Hell, the most unprotected/minority part of Butker's identity is that he is a Catholic! 

 

In terms of systemic racism by the way, part of understanding that is realizing it is precisely not about overt racism. Not all racism is as neat as a cross in the yard. There is a lot we all can learn about this, but I want to take a step back here to focus more on conservative (again, not Republican) response to LGBTQ issues. 

 

Part of what you are saying is proving/aligned with my point. 

 

As far as the issues mentioned, I'm not arguing in favor of those things so you don't need to argue those things with me. I'm in favor of gay marriage. I'm not for or against abortion. Transgenders I think conservatives have a point. There are only two sexes and the fantasy narrative on the left regarding that is absurd.

 

That's not my point though. The point is, these aren't closed ethics issues. There IS an argument on all of those issues, whether you like it or not, and they have a right to express those opinions without receiving threats, getting fired from their job, or being censured on the national stage for weeks on end. 

 

With the arguments you have in mind, on any of these issues, can you identify a train of logic where, from the Conservative Christian heteronormative person camp, these issues or arguments are not about controlling someone else's behavior. I.e. you can't get a gay marriage because I don't agree with it. Your perception of your gender is wrong because of my perception, etc. 

 

For me, the crux of the argument then becomes about exerting your paradigm/worldview on the whole world (i.e. you living your life in some way harms ME). 

 

 

Also, you say people are just reacting. If that was true, I would have no issue with it. That's not true though. The only reason he's still on the Chiefs right now is because he's a damn good kicker. If he was easily replaced, they would have released him rather than deal with the media. He'll have a target on his back going forward. 

 

Right. But he does have a job. This is the first time in recent American political history conservatives are facing any kind of backlash from your speech not being desired by society. This is my "welcome to the club" moment. Being out as trans is something where only in recent years you could even exist in public society without being killed, much less even be considered for a job. Should Butker have even felt a modicum of pressure for his speech? In a perfect world, no. We don't live in one of those. My criticism of you here is that you were pointing out a new or worse phenomenon. That is true for people like Harrison Butker, but untrue for virtually every other "outsider" group. 

 

 

Whether you like it or not, and they have a right to express those opinions without receiving threats, getting fired from their job, or being censured on the national stage for weeks on end. 

 

Again, this idea to me should be a wakeup call for conservatives. I wish people who were conservative (again NOT Republican) would have a thought like this and think "holy shit! what it must be like to be LGBT or trans in American if I am not feeling this". That this is tied to canceling and feels new for conservatives is dissonance from never facing the consequence of expression--people always agreed with you! 

 

But now, there is a commercial with two dads! Or, Brad and Chad had an engagement announcement at work! Or, someone said Happy Holidays! Or, someone I think is a he asked to be called a she! 

 

Times are different. This isn't being driven by the government by the way--government is slower to change and conservatives (this time, yes, Republicans) are trying to use the government to dig into their own cultural views as hard as possible. 

 

The driver of this is cultural and social change. Like it or not, we are shifting to a time when people who think being trans is wrong are going from being the overwhelming dominant group to one that is not so dominant. 

 

Conservatives are feeling these effects and realizing their ideas are not overwhelming preferred by everyone. For a group that has never faced any significant reprisal this feels like a lot. 

 

 

 

[Little Earl]

3 hours ago, Starkiller said:

You have to be some level of racist to support a guy who does as much racist/xenophobic shit as Trump. People who aren’t racist would have a hard time supporting a racist piece of shit like him. 

 

Yet you support racist Biden, which makes you a racist.   All you have to do is look at his past statements and associations to conclude Biden is a racist.

 

 But your defense of anti-Jews would make Bennedict Arnold proud.

[begooode]

9 hours ago, Little Earl said:

 

Yet you support racist Biden, which makes you a racist.   All you have to do is look at his past statements and associations to conclude Biden is a racist.

 

James Clyburn refutes your assertion. The S Carolina representative was adamant in his support of him saying that 'Joe gets us.  Joe's been with us through good times and bad.  And we know Joe'  I believe Clyburn was fulsome and candid in his support of Biden as Joe has the history of showing he cares and takes action for people of different backgrounds.

 

The 1990s Crime Bill was something that everyone wanted.  His associations with Southern Dems with racist tendencies are nothing more than artifacts, fossils from a different era that disingenuous people continue to pin to Biden often as a coping mechanism for the dissonance rather than being honest about where that terrible ideology has migrated to, and pitched its tent.

 

That said, I don't believe the earlier post that most repubs are racists. Not at all. And honestly, I'm not sure how constructive discussions  can proceed and new understandings can be made with that mindset.  It all devolves into defensive posturing and gotchas.

Edited May 24, 2024 by begooode

[WG53]

4 hours ago, Justafan said:

I mean, that's fine. Do you really believe that more than half of modern Americans are racists? Also, are you referring only to white Americans or do you see racism among minorities as well?

 

I'll fully support the idea that there was a surge in racial rhetoric against minorities and such with the alt-right and rise of Donald Trump. Probably as a direct backlash to President Obama. I'll also say that racism is a problem in America but I would argue less so than in many other countries and that the level of racism from ordinary people is greatly exaggerated by the media and people who profit from stirring up controversy. 

Oh it is definitely not just white people. There is plenty of racism to go around from minorities as well. I see it from black people towards white people and Hispanics. Indians towards everyone. Hispanics towards white and black.

[Justafan]

Quote

 

I have not used the word Republican for a reason. I am talking about conservative social values, etc. It's pretty clear we have a different perspective/background on social structures, systemic inequalities, power dynamics, what exists and what doesn't. That's fine--I don't think we're going to be able to get on the same page through this medium of discourse. 

 

I am also not trying to say this is about anyone getting their medicine by the way---although I do believe there is some important perspective getting that needs to happen here and needs to happen with idea like canceling for example. 

 

The history of conservatism and how it ties (or doesn't) to specific political parties is something I am well aware of. Conservatives TODAY are closely linked to this iteration of the Republican party--that has not always been the case, however I am speaking more to pockets of socially conservative people, White, heteronormative Christians. Hell, the most unprotected/minority part of Butker's identity is that he is a Catholic! 

 

In terms of systemic racism by the way, part of understanding that is realizing it is precisely not about overt racism. Not all racism is as neat as a cross in the yard. There is a lot we all can learn about this, but I want to take a step back here to focus more on conservative (again, not Republican) response to LGBTQ issues. 

 

Part of what you are saying is proving/aligned with my point. 

 

A lot to unpack here. Some, I'll address, and some, I'll move on. I agree that there is a difference between the traditional conservative values that you are framing, traditional republican ideas (small government, anti-federalism, individualism, and free markets) (and Christian values and morals that have become intertwined with conservatism since the 1970s or so). 

 

I disagree strongly that trans people had to hide who they were or face death in the United States or do so today. Yes, it's true that there are hate crimes. There are always hate crimes. In 2022, according to the FBI hate crime database, there were 338 hate crimes reported against trans genders. Now, that's terrible and unacceptable, but to put it in perspective, there were over 966 anti-white hate crimes reported and 3,424 anti-black hate crimes reported.

 

If you go back to 1991, the earliest the FBI started tracking there were 68 total for Anti-Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Transgender (Mixed Group).  837 anti-white in that same time frame and 1600 anti-black crimes.

 

Based on statistics, Transgenders are far less safe today than they were 30 years ago, and the idea that they weren't out in the open in the 90s is laughable. The military was the last bastion of that sort of thinking, and even there, it was an unenforced open secret. 

Quote

 

With the arguments you have in mind, on any of these issues, can you identify a train of logic where, from the Conservative Christian heteronormative person camp, these issues or arguments are not about controlling someone else's behavior. I.e. you can't get a gay marriage because I don't agree with it. Your perception of your gender is wrong because of my perception, etc. 

 

For me, the crux of the argument then becomes about exerting your paradigm/worldview on the whole world (i.e. you living your life in some way harms ME).

 

I had a very similar conversation with a PL once years ago. He was a Mormon maybe, or some sort of off Christian, I can't remember but we were discussing gay marriage and I asked him why Christians thought they had some sort of corner on that since people have been doing some sort of unity ritual for as long as men and women have been around and certainly prior to the time of Jesus. He explained it as a war over what marriage means. In their eyes, marriage is something that is ordained by god and so if people get married in sin as they would describe it, it dilutes and attacks marriage. Blah blah blah. I don't agree with conservative Christians on this issue so I won't defend them but there is a moral argument for what they have to say and that doesn't change just because it doesn't jive with MY or YOUR belief that my values shouldn't impede on your freedoms unless that freedom would do harm to others. That's my point. 

Quote

 

Right. But he does have a job. This is the first time in recent American political history conservatives are facing any kind of backlash from your speech not being desired by society. This is my "welcome to the club" moment. Being out as trans is something where only in recent years you could even exist in public society without being killed, much less even be considered for a job. Should Butker have even felt a modicum of pressure for his speech? In a perfect world, no. We don't live in one of those. My criticism of you here is that you were pointing out a new or worse phenomenon. That is true for people like Harrison Butker, but untrue for virtually every other "outsider" group. 

Again, this idea to me should be a wakeup call for conservatives. I wish people who were conservative (again NOT Republican) would have a thought like this and think "holy shit! what it must be like to be LGBT or trans in American if I am not feeling this". That this is tied to canceling and feels new for conservatives is dissonance from never facing the consequence of expression--people always agreed with you! 

 

But now, there is a commercial with two dads! Or, Brad and Chad had an engagement announcement at work! Or, someone said Happy Holidays! Or, someone I think is a he asked to be called a she! 

 

Times are different. This isn't being driven by the government by the way--government is slower to change and conservatives (this time, yes, Republicans) are trying to use the government to dig into their own cultural views as hard as possible. 

 

The driver of this is cultural and social change. Like it or not, we are shifting to a time when people who think being trans is wrong are going from being the overwhelming dominant group to one that is not so dominant. 

 

Conservatives are feeling these effects and realizing their ideas are not overwhelming preferred by everyone. For a group that has never faced any significant reprisal this feels like a lot. 

 

This is where we are going to disagree. This is not the first time conservatives have faced backlash from speech or values. We fought a civil war because there was so much backlash to the idea that slaves should be free. We had to restart the constitution over state vs federal rights and different political ideas. 

 

This is not a welcome-to-the-club moment. I do agree that times are changing and society is driving some of those changes, and some of them are good, while others I think people will look back on and say what they were thinking. But society is always changing and always has been changing and there have always been people left on the outside of that. That's not what's happening here, though, and conflating the issues doesn't help. I'll also push back on the idea that Republicans are using the government to implement rules to enforce their ideas on people. Hell yeah, they are. Both parties are. Democrat programs are in schools, in universities, in work programs, in laws, in regulations, and in the media. The idea that only Republicans are trying to weaponize the government to dig into their own cultural views as hard as possible is laughable to me.