PODCAST Episode 58 - A Charged Debate

[Pragidealist]

It's a mattress burning, Prag. Open the damn door and put it out.

 

Somebody save me from idiots. 

 

 

The details matter, Jamal.   You can't just look at the big picture and get an accurate judge of some things.  It's just not that simple. I don't get why you can see that with CJ but be so blind about it with Locker. 

[OILERMAN]

He knows CJ is a spare

[Jamalisms]

Give what up? I've watched all the plays. What's preposterous is the downright refusal to believe that any other players on the field are making mistakes but Locker. That play that was posted as a .GIF yesterday was a perfect example. Locker did almost nothing wrong. Warmack misses a block, Walker runs a bad or slow route, Britt makes a mental error.

 

I guarantee that his position coach didn't give him a negative grade for that play. Yet what most people are seeing is that Locker threw a ball that hit a defenders chest. That's apparently all they need to see or know in order to make a conclusion no matter how wrong it is. 

 

This isn't baseball with isolated players and plays. The passing game is a function of the quarterback, pass protection and receivers. Every. Single. Play. 

Ok, let's see.

 

You stated that it's just the one play and yet I cited many from this single game. Most people, including Superhorn as you would recall, agree with the simple fact of what I said. Locker should have gotten the ball out sooner and that delaying the throw almost turned ugly. Yes, Britt also played a part in that. No, I don't have to point that out to indicate that Lokcer held the ball too long. Guarantee whatever you want. That sort of talk is hot air.

 

You are now bringing up the straw man that somehow I'm saying nobody else made mistakes. On zero planets in the galaxy is that anything but ridiculous. This is the type of thing that keeps happening and it makes no sense and it belies a certain sense of either subconscious bias or flat out deceit. I suspect the former but there is something fundamentally flawed with this sort of response. Nobody has said players are isolated, yet most people agree that a functional conversation can occur which discusses a single player's performance despite that it is a team game. Interestingly, they don't feel that such a discussion necessitates a belief that the QB is throwing the ball to himself, catching it and running down the field. Neither does discussing the one player mean that nothing done by other players matters. They recognize that others are involved and yet they feel that a single player can be discussed.

 

I'm just not going to argue about the value of a QB in the NFL and what that means about his impact on the rest of the team and visa-versa.

[cenj]

No you can't. That's the whole point.  There are so many moving parts and factors. And then its about how you set the bar.  You absolutely hate these types of discussions because they are reductionistic- but that's the nature of the position. Its not simple. 

 

Good qb vs bad qb. What are those? What does that mean?

How are you defining or setting bars on his play?

Are you comparing him to Schaub, Ponder, Kaep, Brett Favre, Steve McNair, or Peyton Manning. It's all relevant. 

 

It's not simple.   I don't get why that is so hard to understand.  He isn't just good or bad. There are many levels and layers.   Just like every other position. 

 

Ummm...

 

Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees = good QBs.

Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Jake Locker = bad QBs.

 

Call me simplistic.

 

To paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["good QB"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the Titans' quarterback involved in this case is not that."

[TitansGuru]

Crossfit.

[Pragidealist]

Ummm...

 

Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees = good QBs.

Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Jake Locker = bad QBs.

 

Call me simplistic.

 

To paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["good QB"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the Titans' quarterback involved in this case is not that."

 

FANTASTIC!!!  I now have a measuring stick. I completely agree that Locker is not as good as Manning, Brees, and Rodgers. 

 

Is that all we are saying?  Because all of this could have ended hours ago with a simple definition.  I have no illusions that Locker is no where near as good as those three qbs. 

 

I would say I have not seen enough of Locker to put him in the category with Ponder and Gabbert. 

[cenj]

Crossfit.

[Cyrus]

Ok, let's see.

 

You stated that it's just the one play and yet I cited many from this single game.

 

You are now bringing up the straw man that somehow I'm saying nobody else made mistakes. On zero planets in the galaxy is that anything but ridiculous. This is the type of thing that keeps happening and it makes no sense and it belies a certain sense of either subconscious bias or flat out deceit. I suspect the former but there is something fundamentally flawed with this sort of response. Nobody has said players are isolated, yet most people agree that a functional conversation can occur which discusses a single player's performance despite that it is a team game. Interestingly, they don't feel that such a discussion necessitates a belief that the QB is throwing the ball to himself, catching it and running down the field. They recognize that others are involved and yet they feel that a single player can be discussed.

 

 

Most people, including Superhorn as you would recall, agree with the simple fact of what I said. Locker should have gotten the ball out sooner and that delaying the throw almost turned ugly. Guarantee whatever you want. That sort of talk is hot air.

 

 

Most people further feel that putting good QBs on bad teams transforms the team dramatically, baseball or not, and that a QB is the single most important position because of how it impacts the rest of the team. They do not feel this way about RBs.

 

Of course a functional discussion can occur where we can have a rational, reasonably discussion about a single player. Unfortunately, that's not happening here and honestly I don't think it's on behalf of my statements. Great quarterbacks are measured by their ability to overcome other's failures and bring success from plays that should be failures. Bad quarterbacks are measured by their failures when they're placed in a situation that should bring about success. 

 

Locker is neither right now. That may be maddening, but it's true. Watch the pass protection and the depth of the quarterback drop or launch point. Watch the receivers and the depth of their plays. You'll often see that when Locker has successful players around him on any given play, Locker is successful. That's most often true. When someone fails in pass protection or receivers fail to execute, he fails. That doesn't make him a bad quarterback. 

 

That doesn't mean he's "good enough". Teams aren't looking for guys who can't overcome the circumstances around them (Unless you're the KC Chiefs). You need excellent quarterback play, most of the time, to be successful in the playoffs. We are all looking for that player. Locker isn't that guy yet and may never be.

[Jamalisms]

 

Of course a functional discussion can occur where we can have a rational, reasonably discussion about a single player. Unfortunately, that's not happening here and honestly I don't think it's on behalf of my statements. Great quarterbacks are measured by their ability to overcome other's failures and bring success from plays that should be failures. Bad quarterbacks are measured by their failures when they're placed in a situation that should bring about success.

 

Locker is neither right now. That may be maddening, but it's true. Watch the pass protection and the depth of the quarterback drop or launch point. Watch the receivers and the depth of their plays. You'll often see that when Locker has successful players around him on any given play, Locker is successful. That's most often true. When someone fails in pass protection or receivers fail to execute, he fails. That doesn't make him a bad quarterback.

 

That doesn't mean he's "good enough". Teams aren't looking for guys who can't overcome the circumstances around them (Unless you're the KC Chiefs). You need excellent quarterback play, most of the time, to be successful in the playoffs. We are all looking for that player. Locker isn't that guy yet and may never be.

So what is Locker doing poorly right now beyond allowing others to drag him down? Certainly it's something, right?

 

Not other players. What has Locker exhibited that is a negative in his game?

[IsntLifeFunny]

Give what up? I've watched all the plays. What's preposterous is the downright refusal to believe that any other players on the field are impacting the game but Locker. That play that was posted as a .GIF yesterday was a perfect example. Locker did almost nothing wrong. Warmack misses a block, Walker runs a bad or slow route, Britt makes a mental error. On that specific play, virtually nothing suggests any modicum of success for that play.

 

I guarantee that his position coach didn't give him a negative grade for that play. Yet what most people are seeing is that Locker threw a ball that hit a defenders chest. That's apparently all they need to see or know in order to make a conclusion no matter how wrong it is. 

 

This isn't baseball with isolated players and plays. The passing game is a function of the playcall, quarterback, pass protection and receivers. Every. Single. Play. 

 

Don't get me wrong. Locker made bad throws. No one is disputing that. You can isolate throws and situations, sure, but it's a team game where everyone is a factor on the success or failure of a play. 

Simply not true. He hesitated and made a bad throw. He has to get the ball out on time or scramble. What he did on that play was the worst of all options. It would have been better to throw the ball at KB's feet in rhythm and give him a hopeless shot at making a play. Maybe I'm nitpicking, but he absolutely did something wrong. Now, did Walker and Britt do things wrong, as well? Sure. But that doesn't take away from the fact that Locker made a poor decision after holding onto the ball for too long. 

 

I agree with the sentiment that there are too many pieces to conclusively make a definitive statement about the passing game at this point. The WR's & TEs are underwhelming, and the line has been a sieve. I refuse to make a judgement about Locker as a QB until we can at least consistently give him average pass blocking. Now maybe that never happens, and I'll be left without a conclusion, but I'll take it over trying to define Locker as a player until the team helps him out (remembered you said something similar a while back, so I guess I'm paraphrasing you here). Doesn't mean I can't judge a single game as him playing sub par, and then having a melt down (I know, but damn it that one hurt) on that throw in every conceivable fashion (mechanics, poise, mental toughness to stare a blitz in the eye and not get over excited)

 

I've seen progress. I don't think he's taken a step back. His decision making is solid and he's getting better at facing the blitz. He has to work on getting through progressions and keeping his poise. Those are the only firm opinions I have of him at this point.

[Cyrus]

 So what is Locker doing poorly right now beyond allowing others to drag him down? Certainly it's something, right?

 

Not other players. What has Locker exhibited that is a negative in his game?

 

Of course. He's demonstrated inconsistency in his throwing platform leading to errant passes. (see 3rd and 1 play). He also needs to a better job of manipulating the pocket and staying on balance when his launch point is moved. Those to me are the greatest issues he has. 

 

He also needs to continue to move past his initial read while staying in rhythm (although I think this is compounded by pass pressure and playcall). He has done this on some plays, but not others. I'd also like to see him develop more chemistry and rhythm with his receivers (this is a function of receivers and quarterback). 

[Cyrus]

Simply not true. He hesitated and made a bad throw. He has to get the ball out on time or scramble. What he did on that play was the worst of all options. It would have been better to throw the ball at KB's feet in rhythm and give him a hopeless shot at making a play. Maybe I'm nitpicking, but he absolutely did something wrong. Now, did Walker and Britt do things wrong, as well? Sure. But that doesn't take away from the fact that Locker made a poor decision after holding onto the ball for too long. 

 

I agree with the sentiment that there are too many pieces to conclusively make a definitive statement about the passing game at this point. The WR's & TEs are underwhelming, and the line has been a sieve. I refuse to make a judgement about Locker as a QB until we can at least consistently give him average pass blocking. Now maybe that never happens, and I'll be left without a conclusion, but I'll take it over trying to define Locker as a player until the team helps him out. Doesn't mean I can't judge a single game as him playing sub par, and then having a melt down (I know, but damn it that one hurt) on that throw in every conceivable fashion (mechanics, poise, mental toughness to stare a blitz in the eye and not get over excited)

 

I've seen progress. I don't think he's taken a step back. His decision making is solid and he's getting better at facing the blitz. He has to work on getting through progressions and keeping his poise. Those are the only firm opinions I have of him at this point.

 

I don't think he really hesitated. Based on the timing of the first read (a corner route) there's a longer timing element. Based on his eyes and an earlier play, Walker was the first read. The play was broken due to the lack of pass protection - Watt was essentially a free rusher. Britt should have continued to sit down in zone coverage. It was a broken play which is often the case when you have a free rusher.

[IsntLifeFunny]

I don't think he really hesitated. Based on the timing of the first read (a corner route) there's a longer timing element. Based on his eyes and an earlier play, Walker was the first read. The play was broken due to the lack of pass protection - Watt was essentially a free rusher. Britt should have continued to sit down in zone coverage. It was a broken play which is often the case when you have a free rusher.

My eyes tell me different. Super H does a great job of breaking down the play. I'm not just going with him because he knows more about football than I do, but from his breakdown I agree with his summation.

 

As you said above, he has to transition through his reads smoother. He didn't do that here and it almost led to a pic. It was a bad play all around, capped off by a bad decision by Jake.

[Guest]

@Pragidealist, it's obvious what you are trying to do. No one is going to take the time to define new metrics when there are so many established ones already in use.

[kyle021]

I just got through most of the "tense" conversation. 

 

To clarify, I have never said that the third down and 1 throw was "not a problem?" for Locker.   This is where you and so many others miss it.  I have said that IS a huge problem. I have said that Jake's biggest problem is emotionality.  Staying calm under pressure- not mechanical accuracy.  

 

Stop and realize this- the whole thing that Jamal is so pissed about.  Jake missing a play in crunch time- is EXACTLY what I said is his problem.  Emotionality.  Not mechanical accuracy. 

 

Because my critique is different than everyone else's in the media or different than the majority on this board- I get slammed for saying "accuracy" is not his problem.  That his "pocket awareness" is not the problem. His problem is staying calm under pressure.  Everything else is either okay or will develop. The biggest question mark and biggest hurdle is his emotionality.  

 

That is what he has to improve on.  That is what we have to watch. All the other crap is meaningless.  That has been my stance all season.  Jake will get many chances to show he can perform under pressure.  No, Jamal- it won't be an exact situation like that, but there will be numerous situations for him to work on his emotionality under pressure. His passing completion percentage is going up under pressure.  There is hope.  He needs more experiences just like that 3rd and 1 play. He needs high pressure situations so that he learns how to handle them. At the end of the season- we will know.  Right now we know its an issue.  

 

@Jonboy gets it. Completely. 

This is the posto f the day. I completely agree.