Ohtani is already the GOAT

[rns90]

5 hours ago, Titandan said:

If he becomes a top 5 pitcher and top 5 batter for the next 5 years, I think you'll have a real argument. 
Pitching, especially, is deserving of a real premium.  Such an interesting player who fulfilled both of his potentials on offense and defense. 

I'd rather have a team of 3-4 top 15 pitchers and a bunch of .260-.290 hitters with 20-30 HR's/year and solid fielding, than two elite players like Ohtani and Trout and a bunch of scrubs.

Basketball and Football (QB position only) are really a superstar driven game.  

Baseball, on the other hand, is much more of a team driven game.  As the Angels have proven, even with Ohtani and Trout (both generational players), they couldn't achieve success without depth. 

Yeah, pitching especially the top level guys (even the #3 level startrs) are at a premium.  It's way harder to find now.  Hitters are easier to find and develop now and power is a tad overrated.  Heck , it seems like offense is a tad down.  Even contenders are carrying some scrubs at the bottom of the lineup.

 

It's a different game too, talking about pitching.  It seems like teams are almost stuck on the 100 pitch number.  Once the pitchers hit that (especially the younger ones) they get taken out.  And you get these relievers who max out their effort and velocity and lot of them just blow their arms out and get elbow/arm surgery pretty early.

5 hours ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

I just looked it up and saw his WAR as a pitcher was 6.2 in 2022. I wonder how these metrics view him since he's such a unique case. I bet they aren't made for a player like him...ergo a meaningless stst when discussing him. 

If he can't come back and become a top level/ace starter than all his value is on offense and his bat, and he'll have to produce these MVP level seasons to even be considered the GOAT.  And before you'll say, he'll do it etc...It's very difficult.  I'm not talking about consistent 30HR seasons , those are commonplace.  I'm talking like yearly 40+HR seasons and basically him being so much better than the rest of the league.  It's just not done because it's difficult.

[Titandan]

14 minutes ago, rns90 said:

It's a different game too, talking about pitching.  It seems like teams are almost stuck on the 100 pitch number.  Once the pitchers hit that (especially the younger ones) they get taken out.  And you get these relievers who max out their effort and velocity and lot of them just blow their arms out and get elbow/arm surgery pretty early.

5 hours ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

Yeah. A lot of old timers say how weak the new pitchers are and how there wasn't pitch counts when they were in the game.  But today's players are throwing harder and they are getting multiple Tommy John surgeries.  I don't blame the managers for counting pitches at all. 

The Dodgers should have like 6-7 potentially top 20 pitchers.  But a couple of them have been recovering from surgery.  

Imagine how good they would be with a healthy Kershaw, Bueller, May, Glasnow, Gonsolin, Ohtani, and Yammamoto.  They even got rid of Bauer (unjustified) and Urias (justified) a couple years ago.  

Anyway, as an Asian Dodgers fan, I hope they lose.  Seriously don't get how they can spend $1 billion on two players LOL 

Let's go Mets!

[heyitsmeallen]

20 hours ago, rns90 said:

OT but the Braves really can’t be dropping any games to the Marlins if they want to make the playoffs.  Might have to sweep the Mets in the next series to get in.

The Braves have been absolutely decimated by injuries this year. If they make the playoffs it will be a miracle. I can’t even believe they are only 2 games back. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, rns90 said:

Yeah, pitching especially the top level guys (even the #3 level startrs) are at a premium.  It's way harder to find now.  Hitters are easier to find and develop now and power is a tad overrated.  Heck , it seems like offense is a tad down.  Even contenders are carrying some scrubs at the bottom of the lineup.

 

It's a different game too, talking about pitching.  It seems like teams are almost stuck on the 100 pitch number.  Once the pitchers hit that (especially the younger ones) they get taken out.  And you get these relievers who max out their effort and velocity and lot of them just blow their arms out and get elbow/arm surgery pretty early.

If he can't come back and become a top level/ace starter than all his value is on offense and his bat, and he'll have to produce these MVP level seasons to even be considered the GOAT.  And before you'll say, he'll do it etc...It's very difficult.  I'm not talking about consistent 30HR seasons , those are commonplace.  I'm talking like yearly 40+HR seasons and basically him being so much better than the rest of the league.  It's just not done because it's difficult.

 

 

We've been fortunate to see some historic seasons of late--Judge, now Sho. Imagine if both of these guys do it again? 

 

I think pitching does take a toll on his offensive production, so it will be very hard for him to match these numbers. From a fantasy baseball perspective, he's going #1 overall but if I get that pick I might trade him for a fortune. 

 

 

[abenjami]

Ohtani is actually the first to go 50/50/50...

 

50 stolen bases

50 home runs

50 million stolen from him

[scine09]

 

@IsntLifeFunny, I meant to circle back to this thread the other day when Ohtani had his three homer, 10 K game.  He's clearly the best player in the game.  I can't argue it anymore.

Edited Thursday at 02:51 PM by scine09

[abenjami]

13 hours ago, scine09 said:

 

@IsntLifeFunny, I meant to circle back to this thread the other day when Ohtani had his three homer, 10 K game.  He's clearly the best player in the game.  I can't argue it anymore.

 

He's clearly the best player in the game right now but is he the GOAT?

 

I don't think so at this point.

[scine09]

1 hour ago, abenjami said:

 

He's clearly the best player in the game right now but is he the GOAT?

 

I don't think so at this point.

No, I'm not saying he's the GOAT.  Last year he and I got into it over whether he was better than Judge.  I don't think he was when he was purely a DH since Judge is so good in the field and had a higher WAR.  But when he's striking out ten guys in a game and hitting three home runs?  I can't argue it anymore.

[Titandan]

18 hours ago, abenjami said:

 

He's clearly the best player in the game right now but is he the GOAT?

 

I don't think so at this point.

Barry Bonds is the greatest of all time.  Steroids and all. 

Ohtani might be more valuable to a team because of his pitching. But Bonds is the greatest hitter period. 

[abenjami]

Speaking of Barry Bonds, this is from another thread.

 

On 3/29/2025 at 11:00 AM, CaliTitan3518 said:

Pick any two players in the baseball hall of fame. Barry Bonds has more mvp awards than both of them combined. 

 

From 2001-2004 39.5% of all Barry Bonds at bats ended in a walk or a home run. He also reached base in 94% of his games played.

 

If you turned every home run Bonds hit into an out his career on base % would be .384. the same as Alex Rodriguez's. 

 

In 2004 Bonds reached base safely 376 times in 373 at bats. 

 

If you stripped Bonds of all of his stats from his 7 MVP seasons, he woud still have 440 homers, 359 stolen bases which no other player has.

[Titandan]

3 hours ago, abenjami said:

Speaking of Barry Bonds, this is from another thread.

 

Baseball is arguably just as much of a team sport as football.  Maybe even more so since the most consequential player (pitcher) only plays every 4 to 5 games and needs to be subbed out before the 7th inning these days. 

Yeah, as far as hitters go, I don't foresee anyone overtaking Bonds. If you even consider all the intentional walks he's taken over the course of his prime steroid years, I can see him potentially hitting 100 homers easy in one season.  

But I think GOAT needs to be divided into power hitting, lead off (Rickey Henderson: not even close), pitching (probably the most hotly contested), fielding for each position, and clutch hitting (maybe?).  

Anyway, interesting conversation.  Ohtani's definitely special but kind of crazy that he didn't move the needle that much in Anaheim (with Trout) and Bonds never won the big one in SF.  

Edited 3 hours ago by Titandan