FiveThirtyEight: Kirk Cousins Is Not Better Than Joe Montana. So Let’s Fix Passer Rating (Mariota among biggest losers)

[ap24786]

24 minutes ago, big2033 said:

Stats don't matter ... just my opinion!

 

Are you going to blame any issues on Mariota? Anything?

Mariota had good stats in his first two years and I think he's much better now. I thought he was good, but was cringing at people calling him a top 3 QB in the AFC and better than Luck after his 2016 season.  So no, when it comes to NFL QB, I don't think of stats more than just a slight reference point. He's more like middle of the pack with potential if he can get some continuous pieces around him and at least decent pass protection. It's you guys who unilaterally use box score stats to judge a QB and make it out like he's a bottom 5-7 QB when he's clearly not. I know you'll counter that by just stating his TD numbers so there's no point debating anymore. 

[ap24786]

20 minutes ago, big2033 said:

Stats don't matter ... just my opinion!

 

Are you going to blame any issues on Mariota? Anything?

If you want to talk about actually evaluating Mariota more than just the numbers then I agree  with Beddingfield. His main weakness is he needs to do a better job handling pressure and throwing the ball away/taking more chances. Because he was under fire a lot this year due to pass protection and it looked ugly. He also struggles with extending plays outside the pocket and making off-schedule plays.

[TF_Titan]

15 minutes ago, OILERMAN said:

Not a good passer and takes too many sacks, bad combo

Sure, but simply looking at the sack rate is flawed as well. There are multiple factors that play into it. QBs that hold the ball too long take more sacks. QBs with poor OLines take more sacks. QBs that run offenses that emphasize deep drops and slow developing routes take more sacks.

 

Luck used to take a ton of sacks. In his last season (2016) he took 41 sacks. Only one other QB had more (Tyrod Taylor had 42.) The Colts invested heavily in upgrading the OLine and switched to an offense that focuses on getting the ball out quickly and voila...this year he only took 18 sacks. Was his pocket presence that bad in 2016?

 

...Or maybe there were other contributing factors.

 

The problem is looking at any of these metrics in isolation and using them to make blanket assessments.

[big2033]

28 minutes ago, Thrill said:

Newton had a shoulder injury which I would say excuses this anomaly of a season. I excuse mariota’s poor season as well, but he also had a poor year last year.

Newton has had an MVP season. I'm not even going to dive into his other seasons.

[Thrill]

1 minute ago, big2033 said:

Newton has had an MVP season. I'm not even going to dive into his other seasons.

Ok... but he had a bad year this year that’s not really up for debate. His stats don’t look awful but he constantly missed open receivers. But obviously injuries were a major part of it and everyone gets that. 

 

Mariota deserves some of that same leniency. But this his last year to prove himself. Where as Newton is a proven commodity and you can safely assume he will be back to full strength next year. Mariota is not such a sure bet. 

[big2033]

26 minutes ago, ap24786 said:

If you want to talk about actually evaluating Mariota more than just the numbers then I agree  with Beddingfield. His main weakness is he needs to do a better job handling pressure and throwing the ball away/taking more chances. Because he was under fire a lot this year due to pass protection and it looked ugly. He also struggles with extending plays outside the pocket and making off-schedule plays.

You're basically saying he struggles in and outside the pocket.

 

That's the problem. Master of none.

 

DeShaun Watson is not a great passer, but he's elite outside the pocket and in scramble plays.

 

What skill can we hang our hat on for Mariota right now?

 

Can be buy time in the pocket? Can he throw well outside the pocket? Can he make quick adjustments in the pocket? Does he have a rocket arm when under duress? Is he cerebral in pre-snap reads?

 

He's a master of none outside of 4th quarter drives, and that's not a specific skill. He's just average at most things and terrible at others.

 

There is NO WAY our athletic QB can be bad outside the pocket in this league unless he's Tom Brady.

 

[big2033]

3 minutes ago, Thrill said:

Ok... but he had a bad year this year that’s not really up for debate. His stats don’t look awful but he constantly missed open receivers. But obviously injuries were a major part of it and everyone gets that. 

 

Mariota deserves some of that same leniency. But this his last year to prove himself. Where as Newton is a proven commodity and you can safely assume he will be back to full strength next year. Mariota is not such a sure bet. 

Cam is proven what he is at his best. Mariota has proven nothing.

 

Cam Newton is not a great passer either. He is what he is. But the Panthers know what he can do at a high level and play to that.

 

What can Mariota do at a high level?

[ap24786]

Just now, big2033 said:

You're basically saying he struggles in and outside the pocket.

 

That's the problem. Master of none.

 

DeShaun Watson is not a great passer, but he's elite outside the pocket.

 

What skill can we hang our hat on for Mariota right now?

 

Can be buy time in the pocket? Can he throw well outside the pocket? Can he make quick adjustments in the pocket? Does he have a rocket arm when under duress? Is he cerebral in pre-snap reads?

 

He's a master of none outside of 4th quarter drives, and that's not a specific skill.

 

No actually I think he's very good inside the pocket. This narrative he's not is driven by lazy broadcasters who think because he's a mobile QB that "you can't let him beat you outside the pocket." 

[EagleEye]

49 minutes ago, big2033 said:

Are you going to blame any issues on Mariota? Anything?

[big2033]

4 minutes ago, ap24786 said:

No actually I think he's very good inside the pocket. This narrative he's not is driven by lazy broadcasters who think because he's a mobile QB that "you can't let him beat you outside the pocket." 

He's good when safe in the pocket, I agree. But can he buy time and move within the pocket like elite passers do? Haven't see him do it in his time in the NFL

 

An Athletic article from Trent Dilfer said the scouting report from around the league is if you get Mariota to move off his spot his eyes go down and he panics. That's not great in the pocket.

[japan]

1 hour ago, OILERMAN said:

Have I ever posted anything remotely close to this? You're full of shit

It's just funny how quickly you pivot positions on a guy who you vilified a year ago (along with me) then hop to using your new position on the guy to vilify Mariota.

[ap24786]

20 minutes ago, big2033 said:

He's good when safe in the pocket, I agree. But can he buy time and move within the pocket like elite passers do? Haven't see him do it in his time in the NFL

 

An Athletic article from Trent Dilfer said the scouting report from around the league is if you get Mariota to move off his spot his eyes go down and he panics. That's not great in the pocket.

I mean sure, but buying time and moving within the pocket is a refined skill that a lot of QBs develop over time. A lot of younf quarterbacks who are recognized as "franchise QBs"  such as Goff also struggle with this same thing, actually much more than Mariota. They're just seldom put in those situations due to good OL play. And again, I'm not saying Mariota is one of the top QBs. I'm just saying he's right in the mix with other guys such as Dehshaun, Trubisky, Goff, etc. 

[big2033]

3 minutes ago, ap24786 said:

I mean sure, but buying time and moving within the pocket is a refined skill that a lot of QBs develop over time. A lot of younf quarterbacks who are recognized as "franchise QBs"  such as Goff also struggle with this same thing, actually much more than Mariota. They're just seldom put in those situations due to good OL play. And again, I'm not saying Mariota is one of the top QBs. I'm just saying he's right in the mix with other guys such as Dehshaun, Trubisky, Goff, etc. 

Mariota should be ahead of them. He's behind them.

 

That's the problem.

 

Because he's worse outside the pocket. So what is he?

[Huston]

49 minutes ago, TF_Titan said:

Sure, but simply looking at the sack rate is flawed as well. There are multiple factors that play into it. QBs that hold the ball too long take more sacks. QBs with poor OLines take more sacks. QBs that run offenses that emphasize deep drops and slow developing routes take more sacks.

 

Luck used to take a ton of sacks. In his last season (2016) he took 41 sacks. Only one other QB had more (Tyrod Taylor had 42.) The Colts invested heavily in upgrading the OLine and switched to an offense that focuses on getting the ball out quickly and voila...this year he only took 18 sacks. Was his pocket presence that bad in 2016?

 

...Or maybe there were other contributing factors.

 

The problem is looking at any of these metrics in isolation and using them to make blanket assessments.

Thats all he does is use stats never credits his actual game play.

[BudsOilers]

This idea that Mariota's passing numbers (namely TD's) are a result of Henry having a bunch of rushing TD's is moronic.  The Titans had 15 rushing TD's as a team - tied for 13th.  The NFL average was 13.7. The Titans had 16 passing TD's (one by their FS BTW).  Tied with Washington.  The NFL average is 26.5.  Only Arizona, Jacksonville (15 each) and Buffalo (13) were worse.  Overall, the Titans were 27th in points scored.

 

The offense was bad this year.  The run offense was average.  The passing offense was bad. 

 

2017 - 18 rushing touchdowns (5 by Mariota),  whereas NFL average was 11.9.  Passing TD's - 14 whereas the average was 23.2.  Ranked 30th - only Bears and Colts were worse.  Scoring overall they ranked 19th - mainly due to 7 more FG's as team TD's were about the same (1 more TD in 2018).  Of note, the 2018 team had 3 ST/Defensive scores whereas the 2017 team had 1.

 

2016?  In the year that Mularkey ruined Mariota, they were 14th in scoring (9th in passing TD's with 29, 10th in running TD's with 16).