Would you trade Locker for Dalton straight up?

[luvyablue256]

Andy Dalton at this stage in his career is on a higher trajectory than Eli Manning and Joe Flacco. 

 

And these jock sniffers would rather keep Kyle Boller's twin brother. 

 

Unbelievable. 

[Number9]

Dalton Vince Young has 48 50 starts with a record of 30-18 31-19.  

 

Would you trade Jake Locker for Andy Dalton Vince Young?

I kind of had you pegged as a little more sophisticated poster than this.  

[Number9]

This thread has exposed what I've been screaming from the high hills since the TitansCentral days. This fan base (and the front office to a degree) values image and intangible objects rather than actual production.

 

Image doesn't matter. Physique doesn't matter. Intangibles don't matter. 

 

Production trumps all. 

 

There actually are goof bags that seriously think Locker is a better option than Andy Dalton. You idiots should be ashamed of yourselves. 

It's really kind of sad.  What fan would pass up a QB who lead his team to three consecutive playoffs in his first three seasons to keep one who has not played three games fully healthy in three seasons?  Sure it not a serious question because no fan in Cincy would say yes, let alone management.  But to see nearly half the posters here say they would rather have Jake over Dalton in an even trade exhibits a degree of irrationality I can't comprehend.  I would love to see one of them try to make this argument in an Indy sports bar or God forbid in Green Bay.

[Number9]

I think Jaguar fans are voting, like repubs stuffing the dems ballot box for Jessie.

[abenjami]

Then, just stick to those.

FWIW, I had a fairly extensive post on MCM saying that we should have drafted Dalton that year at 8. I thought he'd end up as the best QB of the class.

I just don't think Dalton should be viewed any better or worse of a prospective QB if he were on an inferior team.

Tape > advanced metrics > general stats + wins to illustrate a QB's capabilities.

If you had all 96 current NFL head coaches, offensive coordinators and defensive coordinators watch all of the tape on Locker and Dalton, how many do you think would trade away Locker for Dalton?

[Superhorn]

If you had all 96 current NFL head coaches, offensive coordinators and defensive coordinators watch all of the tape on Locker and Dalton, how many do you think would trade away Locker for Dalton?

Shit, I don't know.

 

I think it's kind of a mixed bag.  

 

Locker remains a total question mark.  An unknown to me for the most part, though one that has at least shown glimpses of something special.

 

Alternatively, I think Dalton is a known quantity.  I don't think his ceiling get much higher.  He's limited in what he can do, but he's more than capable of winning with the right people around him.

 

Problem is that Dalton is going to command stupid money soon.  Flacco money.  And, you can't build around a QB that way.  That monster contract will limit them.  Only the elite can elevate teams that are burdened with those sort of contracts (Brees, Brady, Manning, Rodgers).  

 

I mean, if we were just talking re-draft, then sure.  Take Dalton.  I think with this team as constructed now he would fit nicely into a team with a Horton run defense that runs the ball 50+% of the time.  But, I absolutely would not make that trade today with the future contract looming.

 

From my perspective, I'd rather take a shot on Locker.  If he succeeds, you're not looking at the same sort of mega deal.  If he fails, you reboot.

 

I prefer this - more or less - binary result.  I realize that preference may not be for everybody.

[reo]

Shit, I don't know.

 

I think it's kind of a mixed bag.  

 

Locker remains a total question mark.  An unknown to me for the most part, though one that has at least shown glimpses of something special.

 

Alternatively, I think Dalton is a known quantity.  I don't think his ceiling get much higher.  He's limited in what he can do, but he's more than capable of winning with the right people around him.

 

Problem is that Dalton is going to command stupid money soon.  Flacco money.  And, you can't build around a QB that way.  That monster contract will limit them.  Only the elite can elevate teams that are burdened with those sort of contracts (Brees, Brady, Manning, Rodgers).  

 

I mean, if we were just talking re-draft, then sure.  Take Dalton.  I think with this team as constructed now he would fit nicely into a team with a Horton run defense that runs the ball 50+% of the time.  But, I absolutely would not make that trade today with the future contract looming.

 

From my perspective, I'd rather take a shot on Locker.  If he succeeds, you're not looking at the same sort of mega deal.  If he fails, you reboot.

 

I prefer this - more or less - binary result.  I realize that preference may not be for everybody.

 

That's the key thing. it's not just Locker vs Dalton. It's Locker's potential or possibly a 1st rounder next year vs probably having Dalton here w/ a big contract soon for a long time.

 

I'd prefer to see what Locker has this year and if he doesn't show enough, get a QB in the 1st next year.

[Face]

That's the key thing. it's not just Locker vs Dalton. It's Locker's potential or possibly a 1st rounder next year vs probably having Dalton here w/ a big contract soon for a long time.

 

I'd prefer to see what Locker has this year and if he doesn't show enough, get a QB in the 1st next year.

 

 

That's the key thing. it's not just Locker vs Dalton. It's Locker's potential or possibly a 1st rounder next year vs probably having Dalton here w/ a big contract soon for a long time.

 

I'd prefer to see what Locker has this year and if he doesn't show enough, get a QB in the 1st next year.

 

Honestly Reo I don't know how you could have the stomach to take a QB in the 1st next year. I can't do it again, it's my worst nightmare. If Jake doesn't workout I'd look at a trade for Cousins or sign a Fitzpatrick type & go ahead with Mettenberger. That said, it's a very real possibility.  

[reo]

Honestly Reo I don't know how you could have the stomach to take a QB in the 1st next year. I can't do it again, it's my worst nightmare. If Jake doesn't workout I'd look at a trade for Cousins or sign a Fitzpatrick type & go ahead with Mettenberger. That said, it's a very real possibility.  

 

You get the QB that you feel has the best chance of success. If you can trade a lower pick for a QB, does that mean he has a higher ceiling and chance of success than a 1st round QB? If so then why is he worth a lower round pick?

 

Do your evals. Trust your scouts and make the pick. Bring in a vet in FA or via trade as well if you feel it's warranted.

 

But right now, we focus on Locker and hope it doesn't come to that.

[luvyablue256]

Shit, I don't know.

 

I think it's kind of a mixed bag.  

 

Locker remains a total question mark.  An unknown to me for the most part, though one that has at least shown glimpses of something special.

 

Alternatively, I think Dalton is a known quantity.  I don't think his ceiling get much higher.

 

1. No he hasn't. He's shown flashes that he can possibly be above average if you hide him well enough. That's not special. The few games in which Locker looked decent were instances where the coaches put him in "stick and move" situations. They never allowed him to try and out-swing his opponent. Just jab, move, duck the headshots and hope the other guy tires himself out. That's Lockerball. Too bad it's getting you no where in today's NFL.

 

2. Name me ONE QB that has done as well as Dalton's done, yet completely hitting his ceiling in year 3. 

[Superhorn]

1. No he hasn't. He's shown flashes that he can possibly be above average if you hide him well enough. That's not special. The few games in which Locker looked decent were instances where the coaches put him in "stick and move" situations. They never allowed him to try and out-swing his opponent. Just jab, move, duck the headshots and hope the other guy tires himself out. That's Lockerball. Too bad it's getting you no where in today's NFL.

 

2. Name me ONE QB that has done as well as Dalton's done, yet completely hitting his ceiling in year 3. 

Eh.  I did say flashes.  

 

I only somewhat disagree about the "Lockerball" bit.  I didn't think they hid him against San Diego or the Jets.  

 

As for #2 - Drew Bledsoe?  Jeff Garcia?  *Edit:  Should have included Carson Palmer here too.  

 

I'll leave it at that.  I generally don't like those sorts of comparisons because (like team wins) they have far to many variables, and the game has changed dramatically in even just the past 10 years.

 

I like Dalton.  Let me be clear about that.  I'm not disputing that he's clearly better than Locker at this point.  I just don't see enough talent from him to warrant the money that he's going to command (ie. an average of $20mm against the cap each year and a long term commitment).

Edited July 17, 2014 by Superhorn

[abenjami]

Dalton has publicly said he does not want a big contract and is willing to sign for something similar to what Keapernick got (basically a year by year deal).

So the whole contract argument is not a valid one.

[abenjami]

Shit, I don't know.

I think it's kind of a mixed bag.

Locker remains a total question mark. An unknown to me for the most part, though one that has at least shown glimpses of something special.

Alternatively, I think Dalton is a known quantity. I don't think his ceiling get much higher. He's limited in what he can do, but he's more than capable of winning with the right people around him.

Problem is that Dalton is going to command stupid money soon. Flacco money. And, you can't build around a QB that way. That monster contract will limit them. Only the elite can elevate teams that are burdened with those sort of contracts (Brees, Brady, Manning, Rodgers).

I mean, if we were just talking re-draft, then sure. Take Dalton. I think with this team as constructed now he would fit nicely into a team with a Horton run defense that runs the ball 50+% of the time. But, I absolutely would not make that trade today with the future contract looming.

From my perspective, I'd rather take a shot on Locker. If he succeeds, you're not looking at the same sort of mega deal. If he fails, you reboot.

I prefer this - more or less - binary result. I realize that preference may not be for everybody.

You think 96 experts looking at film of these guys results in a mixed bag?

I think it's pretty clear Dalton wins the film contest in a landslide.

[Superhorn]

Dalton has publicly said he does not want a big contract and is willing to sign for something similar to what Keapernick got (basically a year by year deal).

So the whole contract argument is not a valid one.

Kaepernicks deal may not have the same liability as Flaccos, but it still does cost $17 mm- $21 mm/ year against the cap depending on the year.

Numbers like that would really limit our ability to resign players like Casey and Wright. And, I'm not sure Dalton can win without a solid supporting cast.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Superhorn

[Superhorn]

You think 96 experts looking at film of these guys results in a mixed bag?

I think it's pretty clear Dalton wins the film contest in a landslide.

I meant that when combined with the cap liability it is a mixed bag.

I'm a huge Dalton fan, but he isn't worth the cap number that will be associated with his play.

As I said before, all things being equal contractually, I'd take Dalton over Locker.