Starkiller Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Justafan said: I've had enough of your lunacy. Then define fascism in a way that doesn’t describe the modern GOP. I’m asking a serious question… Edited December 20, 2023 by Starkiller Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justafan Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 4 minutes ago, Starkiller said: Then define fascism in a way that doesn’t describe the modern GOP. I’m asking a serious question… No you aren't. Go away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsntLifeFunny Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 21 minutes ago, Justafan said: They can pass legislation through reconciliation. True. It wouldn't be like the original obamacare mandate they were trying to push through the Interstate Commerce Clause and then back through the taxation clause. They would have to be directly upfront that it would be a tax on everyone, which can be passed through Reconcilliation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 4 minutes ago, Justafan said: No you aren't. Go away. Define fascism… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, IsntLifeFunny said: True. It wouldn't be like the original obamacare mandate they were trying to push through the Interstate Commerce Clause and then back through the taxation clause. They would have to be directly upfront that it would be a tax on everyone, which can be passed through Reconcilliation. Where are the 60 votes coming from??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsntLifeFunny Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 Just now, Starkiller said: Where are the 60 votes coming from??? He's right they could use reconciliation since it would be a pure tax bill and pass it with only 50. It isn't happening, but theoretically he's right. Justafan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 1 minute ago, IsntLifeFunny said: He's right they could use reconciliation since it would be a pure tax bill and pass it with only 50. It isn't happening, but theoretically he's right. You can’t use reconciliation for all of it, which is why they needed 60 votes for Obamacare and then another reconciliation vote to “fix” it. Not everything can get done via reconciliation… including creating a new government healthcare plan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justafan Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 7 minutes ago, Strunk'sDessert said: I'm not discounting your lived experiences at all. You can point to the different countries zeitgeists and point to specific legislatures and their beliefs to point against this, and you'd be correct. If you were to take the average Dem and have them list out their political beliefs, they'd probably fall center left or center right in terms of political science's definitions and where they land on a spectrum. Based on Bidens record, he's center right based on the definitions of that spectrum. Disagree with those political scientists and their definitions, but that's what a slew of them over time have decided, although it's ever changing. Compared to Sanders, sure, he's a moderate but that lacks context. Compared to Clinton, Obama, and other Democrats before him, he's shifted further left as many leftist ideas have become more and more mainstream in the last few years. He's certainly not center-right in his views - liberal on abortion rights, gun control, immigration, and most social issues. Passed very liberal economic and climate change bills. Was in the administration that ushered in the Affordable Care Act which was the biggest effort towards Universal Healthcare in our lifetimes... the list goes on. He might not be as far left as the really progressive left, but that doesn't make him a true moderate either. Maybe at one time he was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justafan Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, Starkiller said: You can’t use reconciliation for all of it, which is why they needed 60 votes for Obamacare and then another reconciliation vote to “fix” it. Not everything can get done via reconciliation… including creating a new government healthcare plan. Pointless argument. The simple fact remains that Democrats aren't passing these rules because they can't and not because they don't want to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsntLifeFunny Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 Just now, Starkiller said: You can’t use reconciliation for all of it, which is why they needed 60 votes for Obamacare and then another reconciliation vote to “fix” it. Not everything can get done via reconciliation… including creating a new government healthcare plan. Here's a really good article I found. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/8/18251707/medicare-for-all-bill-senate-filibuster-budget-reconciliation-byrd-rule It could be passed under Reconciliation theoretically. Some of its exemptions and statutes as currently defined would be stripped, but it could still in theory drop the age of recipients of Medicare to 0. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsntLifeFunny Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 8 minutes ago, Justafan said: Compared to Sanders, sure, he's a moderate but that lacks context. Compared to Clinton, Obama, and other Democrats before him, he's shifted further left as many leftist ideas have become more and more mainstream in the last few years. He's certainly not center-right in his views - liberal on abortion rights, gun control, immigration, and most social issues. Passed very liberal economic and climate change bills. Was in the administration that ushered in the Affordable Care Act which was the biggest effort towards Universal Healthcare in our lifetimes... the list goes on. He might not be as far left as the really progressive left, but that doesn't make him a true moderate either. Maybe at one time he was. And compared to Europeans he's a conservative. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 Just now, Justafan said: Pointless argument. The simple fact remains that Democrats aren't passing these rules because they can't and not because they don't want to. Dems can’t pass a lot of things they want to (that are popular with the public) because they don’t have the votes with just a simple majority… IsntLifeFunny 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 2 minutes ago, IsntLifeFunny said: Here's a really good article I found. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/8/18251707/medicare-for-all-bill-senate-filibuster-budget-reconciliation-byrd-rule It could be passed under Reconciliation theoretically. Some of its exemptions and statutes as currently defined would be stripped, but it could still in theory drop the age of recipients of Medicare to 0. If you’ll recall they tried simply expanding Medicare eligibility under Obama and it couldn’t be done through reconciliation. Lieberman blocked it when they needed his vote. Now, maybe if there were a standalone bill expanding Medicare to all Americans it would be able to pass through reconciliation, but I have my doubts… IsntLifeFunny 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsntLifeFunny Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 Just now, Starkiller said: If you’ll recall they tried simply expanding Medicare eligibility under Obama and it couldn’t be done through reconciliation. Lieberman blocked it when they needed his vote. Now, maybe if there were a standalone bill expanding Medicare to all Americans it would be able to pass through reconciliation, but I have my doubts… Oh it isn't happening. I'm speaking in theoreticals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMax Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 It sucks that we can't have universal healthcare. It sucks we can't have socialized child care. It sucks that we're going in the opposite direction all due to the greed of the haves who don't give a damn about the have nots. pamo9, and Jamalisms 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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