Jonboy Posted November 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2016 30 minutes ago, Tex in a Can said: Good job guys, thanks for the effort. A bye week, self evaluation and extra time to work on the issues should help a lot, including time for the team to get rested and healthy. Green Bay looked good last night, can't see the Texans offense putting up enough points to beat them. It was nice to see GB's offense looking strong and for the defense to show a pulse. Increases my hope they'll take care of the Texans next week. If the Jets could somehow upset the Colts, then it would be quite a bye week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted November 29, 2016 Report Share Posted November 29, 2016 The only time GB has won two in a row this year, there was a bye week in the middle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus Posted November 29, 2016 Report Share Posted November 29, 2016 Listening now. Jamal, I have to say, I don't understand your point about this offense. The Titans have had one of the best offenses in the league for several weeks, Mariota has been extremely efficient and productive. What's the real problem? Why should Mariota be throwing consistently in the second half with the Titans having such a huge lead? Is this all about Jamal watching the Packers offense for several years and having pre-conceived ideas about what a modern NFL offense / franchise quarterback needs to look like? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted November 29, 2016 Report Share Posted November 29, 2016 4 hours ago, Cyrus said: Snip You tend to struggle with my positions on Titans QBs when any sort of negativity is involved. But let's be clear - I'm higher on Mariota than most, if not all, on this message board. My opinion of Marcus is many degrees higher than Napoleon and pretty likely higher than Jonboy. I would turn this offense over to him and design around him. If anything, I think he's better than what has been shown. But we were not discussing Mariota in general. There is no "problem" being discussed and what they "should" do as an offense with Mariota is irrelevant. If you make sure you're staying on topic and not mixing the related but tangential discussion of what should be with what is... I think it'll be easier to understand. We were discussing what Mariota has accomplished and how that translates to assigning him a title - a title that many will define differently, let alone the fact that what's accomplished is filtered through varying lenses depending on who is analysing it. To the extent that the offense gets addressed, it's not about quality, points scored or what they should be doing. It's a question of what they are doing and what the QB's role is. Mariota's passing efficiency is easily elite but I look at more than passing efficiency. Offenses are designed to generate passing efficiency in varying ways and what a QB is tasked with / how the offense is designed impacts the level of praise I will afford. Luck is a good example and he gets more praise from me than his efficiency rating would otherwise indicated because of what he's tasked with and the amount of work he shoulders. A QB who does less than almost anyone (among the lowest in attempts per game and operates in a clearly defined run centric offense) but does it more efficiently than almost anyone, is an interesting challenge when considering elite status... a status I consider equatable to "franchise QB." By my standard for "franchise QB" I don't think you can give him that status because he hasn't be tasked with enough (and I think few would call him elite already). But, as said on the podcast, if the standard is that he's a longtime starter, then he achieved it last year. And if the standard is Osweiller or whoever else Napoleon mentioned in this thread, Mariota was drafted with better than that status. ... but, sure, I've watched the Packers! You caught me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus Posted November 29, 2016 Report Share Posted November 29, 2016 I struggle with your positions, because they often feel tied to some type of arbitrary assumption. That assumption often becomes the ultimate basis for evaluation. In this case, it's passing attempts, or Mariota's throwing attempts vis a vis the play timeshare. By your judgment, a quarterback that throws for 3 TDs and 300 yards on 65% of a team's plays is somehow better than a quarterback that throws for 3 TDs and 300 yards on 50% of a team's plays. This is the argument that I believe you're making. But on what basis could that possibly be true? The problem is that creates an arbitrary constraint on your evaluation. Take this thought experiment: If a quarterback existed who only threw touchdowns, but only passed 3-4 times a game, would they be a franchise/elite QB? By your standard...I'm not sure, but by most other's they might be the best quarterback of all time. So what would give? The best I can figure is that passing frequency cannot be an ultimate measure of any quarterback. It's just not a sensible measure. Oilerman has been arguing about Mariota's efficiency, which to me, is a far more complete and defensible measure of quarterback play. It would be difficult to create a thought experiment for efficiency that would create any clear logical conflicts in the evaluation. (particularly as it relates to the current quarterback rating) If we disregard the play timeshare, we're really just left with some type of qualitative evaluation by yourself that Mariota isn't being asked to do enough, or much within the broader context of the NFL. The problem is that I really don't think there's much evidence of this, particularly given the context that he's a sophomore quarterback. Mariota has quite a bit of control over this offense, they just happen to be a team that runs more than average. I'm just not sure what you want. Maybe it's to see Mariota in comparable situations to Rodgers/Brady and see him thrive there. If they are the measure of "elite" and we see Mariota in a similar context with similar results, then we can assume he's elite too. But again, this is a pretty narrow view of what it means to be an elite of franchise quarterback. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted November 29, 2016 Report Share Posted November 29, 2016 I'm sorry, but that's a whole lot of words and a magic wand. As I once did with Jake Locker, I'll just opt out of discussing this with you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus Posted November 29, 2016 Report Share Posted November 29, 2016 Just now, Jamalisms said: I'm sorry, but that's a whole lot of words and a magic wand. As I once did with Jake Locker, I'll just opt out of discussing this with you. That's fine - but realize you're becoming the Skip Bayless of the podcast. If you want to have a criteria for quarterback play than that's fine, just defend it. Your positions don't look reasonable or defensible at this point and your opinions are weighed down by your preconceived ideas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus Posted November 29, 2016 Report Share Posted November 29, 2016 Jamal, I'd be curious how the 2014 and 2015 Seahawks fit into your paradigm of coaching and quarterback play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted November 29, 2016 Report Share Posted November 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Cyrus said: If you want to have a criteria for quarterback play than that's fine, just defend it. I did. By explaining my thought process. Thoroughly. Including noting that I consider "franchise QB" to be rather synonymous (as discussed on the podcast) with elite. You dismissed it because either #1 you didn't read it with an open mind (likely, based on past experience) or #2 you think it's completely unreasonable to say he isn't elite (less likely, but completely asinine if true). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted November 29, 2016 Report Share Posted November 29, 2016 57 minutes ago, Cyrus said: Jamal, I'd be curious how the 2014 and 2015 Seahawks fit into your paradigm of coaching and quarterback play. Look back to any discussions of Russell Wilson early in his career and you'll see me saying that they're a rushing offense, further protected by an elite defense and that he's asked to do less than others (like Luck) which means his accomplishments - not his quality as a QB overall, though they're related - are overrated. He's continued doing it and improving even as they've asked more of him. His accomplishments are (status is) borderline elite now in my book. Part of that is the length of the period over which it's been displayed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OILERMAN Posted November 30, 2016 Report Share Posted November 30, 2016 I didn't understand Jamal's point about the offense and Mariota either. Except a clear attempt to say Mariota is still not being used properly Mariota is balling, he's on pace for 4000 yards and 33 TD with a 100+ passing offense. Of course he's the focal points of the offense. Since week 5 half his games he's thrown 3 or more TDs and a total of 23 Tds. He's thrown multiple TDs in 8 straight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted November 30, 2016 Report Share Posted November 30, 2016 My goodness. No, he's not the focal point of this offense. He's just really good damn good and stands out while uplifting it. The run game is the focal point of the offense and keys much of the passing attack. But, hey, if we're back to denying that this is a run first offense when the coach, GM and stats back it up - have at it. The bye week is gonna be slow without something to laugh at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OILERMAN Posted November 30, 2016 Report Share Posted November 30, 2016 Of course Mariota is the focal point, this isn't debateable. It doesn't matter what formations or whether it from playction or under center. In 5 of the last 8 games the Titans have gotten very big leads, otherwise Mariota would have more attempts and stats. He's going to end up with 400-450 yards on the ground and 2-4 TDs with 20-25 rushing first downs on top of the big passing stats. Laugh it up, everyone sees the truth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted November 30, 2016 Report Share Posted November 30, 2016 Indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonboy Posted November 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2016 Now if we can just get @reo in here, this could be our longest podcast thread in quite some time! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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