Mythos27 Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 23 hours ago, Justafan said: Come on. That's not close to true. People, including myself, had an immediate negative reaction. I have 0 military experience but I had the same gut reaction as you. After thinking about it though, I came to the conclusion that the players weren't being disrespectful at all. What they were doing was choosing to not show respect which is different than being disrespectful. What we have is people painting this as a dichotomy between respect and disrespect where a third, more neutral stance is possible. Were the players doing something actively disrespectful like giving the finger, spitting, yelling, etc during the anthem, this would be open and shut but what they're doing is much more akin to the non-violent resistance we saw in the civil rights movement. IMO kneeling can only be construed as a disrespectful action if you believe that the only acceptable form of behavior during the anthem is to stand. I don't hold that view and see it as a neutral alternative to showing active support or respect. A good comparison IMO is appropriate behavior during a group prayer. If you're in a place and the group there is christian but you're not are you then forced to bow your head and close your eyes? Surely, some very agreeable people, myself included, might do so just to avoid potential awkwardness but that doesn't mean that someone else can't choose to instead keep their eyes open without bowing their heads and wait quietly until the player is done. Can a person who chooses to quietly abstain from prayer then be accused by a participant of being disrespectful of their religion? Does their refusal to show active respect/support constitute genuine disrespect? I don't think so and to me these things are very similar. In short, not showing active or overt respectfulness =/= disrespect. We're falling for a false dichotomy that favors people (not you Justa) who's true purpose is to shut down protest on what they see as a "black issue". It isn't about respect for the flag. It's about using patriotism as a bludgeon to break up a movement that they don't like, don't understand, and makes them uncomfortable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justafan Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 30 minutes ago, Mythos27 said: I have 0 military experience but I had the same gut reaction as you. After thinking about it though, I came to the conclusion that the players weren't being disrespectful at all. What they were doing was choosing to not show respect which is different than being disrespectful. What we have is people painting this as a dichotomy between respect and disrespect where a third, more neutral stance is possible. Were the players doing something actively disrespectful like giving the finger, spitting, yelling, etc during the anthem, this would be open and shut but what they're doing is much more akin to the non-violent resistance we saw in the civil rights movement. IMO kneeling can only be construed as a disrespectful action if you believe that the only acceptable form of behavior during the anthem is to stand. I don't hold that view and see it as a neutral alternative to showing active support or respect. A good comparison IMO is appropriate behavior during a group prayer. If you're in a place and the group there is christian but you're not are you then forced to bow your head and close your eyes? Surely, some very agreeable people, myself included, might do so just to avoid potential awkwardness but that doesn't mean that someone else can't choose to instead keep their eyes open without bowing their heads and wait quietly until the player is done. Can a person who chooses to quietly abstain from prayer then be accused by a participant of being disrespectful of their religion? Does their refusal to show active respect/support constitute genuine disrespect? I don't think so and to me these things are very similar. In short, not showing active or overt respectfulness =/= disrespect. We're falling for a false dichotomy that favors people (not you Justa) who's true purpose is to shut down protest on what they see as a "black issue". It isn't about respect for the flag. It's about using patriotism as a bludgeon to break up a movement that they don't like, don't understand, and makes them uncomfortable. Well said. Trying to understand and I'll leave it at that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiscotitansfan Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 40 minutes ago, Mythos27 said: I have 0 military experience but I had the same gut reaction as you. After thinking about it though, I came to the conclusion that the players weren't being disrespectful at all. What they were doing was choosing to not show respect which is different than being disrespectful. What we have is people painting this as a dichotomy between respect and disrespect where a third, more neutral stance is possible. Were the players doing something actively disrespectful like giving the finger, spitting, yelling, etc during the anthem, this would be open and shut but what they're doing is much more akin to the non-violent resistance we saw in the civil rights movement. IMO kneeling can only be construed as a disrespectful action if you believe that the only acceptable form of behavior during the anthem is to stand. I don't hold that view and see it as a neutral alternative to showing active support or respect. A good comparison IMO is appropriate behavior during a group prayer. If you're in a place and the group there is christian but you're not are you then forced to bow your head and close your eyes? Surely, some very agreeable people, myself included, might do so just to avoid potential awkwardness but that doesn't mean that someone else can't choose to instead keep their eyes open without bowing their heads and wait quietly until the player is done. Can a person who chooses to quietly abstain from prayer then be accused by a participant of being disrespectful of their religion? Does their refusal to show active respect/support constitute genuine disrespect? I don't think so and to me these things are very similar. In short, not showing active or overt respectfulness =/= disrespect. We're falling for a false dichotomy that favors people (not you Justa) who's true purpose is to shut down protest on what they see as a "black issue". It isn't about respect for the flag. It's about using patriotism as a bludgeon to break up a movement that they don't like, don't understand, and makes them uncomfortable. Do you feel that same way if you were to be in a courthouse and they ask you to rise when the judge comes in? Just curious where your line is drawn. Is actively not participating in the request simply staying neutral? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titansgoodluckcharm Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 Don't forget about all of those Americans and having their rights violated by the justice system through all of that "outrage." You know... the actual victims. Not you're victimized ego for whatever reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeedoeLaw Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Mythos27 said: I have 0 military experience but I had the same gut reaction as you. After thinking about it though, I came to the conclusion that the players weren't being disrespectful at all. What they were doing was choosing to not show respect which is different than being disrespectful. What we have is people painting this as a dichotomy between respect and disrespect where a third, more neutral stance is possible. Were the players doing something actively disrespectful like giving the finger, spitting, yelling, etc during the anthem, this would be open and shut but what they're doing is much more akin to the non-violent resistance we saw in the civil rights movement. IMO kneeling can only be construed as a disrespectful action if you believe that the only acceptable form of behavior during the anthem is to stand. I don't hold that view and see it as a neutral alternative to showing active support or respect. A good comparison IMO is appropriate behavior during a group prayer. If you're in a place and the group there is christian but you're not are you then forced to bow your head and close your eyes? Surely, some very agreeable people, myself included, might do so just to avoid potential awkwardness but that doesn't mean that someone else can't choose to instead keep their eyes open without bowing their heads and wait quietly until the player is done. Can a person who chooses to quietly abstain from prayer then be accused by a participant of being disrespectful of their religion? Does their refusal to show active respect/support constitute genuine disrespect? I don't think so and to me these things are very similar. In short, not showing active or overt respectfulness =/= disrespect. We're falling for a false dichotomy that favors people (not you Justa) who's true purpose is to shut down protest on what they see as a "black issue". It isn't about respect for the flag. It's about using patriotism as a bludgeon to break up a movement that they don't like, don't understand, and makes them uncomfortable. Well said. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythos27 Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 hours ago, wiscotitansfan said: Do you feel that same way if you were to be in a courthouse and they ask you to rise when the judge comes in? Just curious where your line is drawn. Is actively not participating in the request simply staying neutral? In the interest of consistency, yes. I consider that a neutral action. Once you get into the legal realm though things start to become complex in that some even neutral actions are punishable by law ( knowing about a murder but not telling the police) but patriotism isn't a legal issue...at least not yet. I still maintain though that there is a distinction to be made between disrespect and choosing to not show respect. In many cases where people are asking for "respect" they're really asking for compliance or adoration. Ironically pro athletes often play the disrespect card when their team isn't receiving the adoration they feel is due even if the coverage of the team isn't overly disrespectful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted June 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 Trump has already announced that he won’t invite the NBA champion to the White House. None of them kneel for the anthem. He also did not invite the WNBA champions to the White House. Perhaps it’s less about kneeling and more about players being black that he opposes... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythos27 Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Starkiller said: Trump has already announced that he won’t invite the NBA champion to the White House. None of them kneel for the anthem. He also did not invite the WNBA champions to the White House. Perhaps it’s less about kneeling and more about players being black that he opposes... He just knows how many people hate his guts. He's easily the most hated President in history and that includes Nixon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted June 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Mythos27 said: He just knows how many people hate his guts. He's easily the most hated President in history and that includes Nixon. Nixon was more hated, but only because there was no GOP propaganda machine back then to rival the likes of Fox News, Rush, Breitbart, InfoWars, etc... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Btowner Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 30 minutes ago, Starkiller said: Trump has already announced that he won’t invite the NBA champion to the White House. None of them kneel for the anthem. He also did not invite the WNBA champions to the White House. Perhaps it’s less about kneeling and more about players being black that he opposes... That's funny because when news broke of Trump disinviting the Eagles to the White House, Lebron James already said neither wanted the invite and wouldn't go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titansgoodluckcharm Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Starkiller said: Trump has already announced that he won’t invite the NBA champion to the White House. None of them kneel for the anthem. He also did not invite the WNBA champions to the White House. Perhaps it’s less about kneeling and more about players being black that he opposes... When we were getting killed you didn't seem to care much @starkiller. Don't make this your hot button issue now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titansgoodluckcharm Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titansgoodluckcharm Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titansgoodluckcharm Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 @Justafan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titansgoodluckcharm Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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