Grantland: The Miami Dolphins and Everything That Will Never Make Sense

[WG53]

And more tinman idiocy.

[Cyrus]

These situations are totally different. Was Martin ever brutalized or had his career put in jeopardy? It's kind of ridiculous to make this situation analogous to a rape case, or to a guy that had his eye socket crushed in by a bag of coins. If information comes out that he was actually in physical danger, then I'll change my mind.  Until then, I stand by my point that everyone involved should have handled it differently.

 

Show one post actually defending Incognito. I haven't seen one. People saying a guy being threatened should stand up for himself is called common sense. It doesn't mean, at least for me, that the guy is weak minded or anything, just that he's in the NFL and fights happen all of the time. 

 

 The reports have shown he was egging this on by playing pranks and showing off the VM; does that not fit into the equation? He supposedly screwed his teammates out of 15k, because they had already paid for the trip he agreed to go on, so I can't really call that extortion, unless further evidence comes out. The VM are out of line, but if he actually felt threatened, and didn't want to confront the guy, then this should have come out in April.

 

You can philosophize all you'd like, and I agree with it to a certain extent. What I don't agree with at this point is the timeline of events.

 

Go to ESPN. com and see their polls there. About 25% support Incognito and about 50% think that Martin should have simply punched him out. Not good.

[IsntLifeFunny]

Go to ESPN. com and see their polls there. About 25% support Incognito and about 50% think that Martin should have simply punched him out. Not good.

Ah. I thought you were talking about TR.

 

If this whole thing came out in a different light because Martin knocked the guy out, would you have supported him doing so?

[tinman]

as long as WG thinks I am wrong I know I am doing it right..

[cenj]

It's just men behaving badly and a bad case of tradition for traditions sake. (As if a long history of sad behavior means it's somehow more worthy than good behavior).

 

When I read about these stories all I can think about is the sad state of men in society. Men afflicted with weak character and an utter fear of standing up and doing the right thing. Aristotle was right when he stated that courage was the first of human qualities - no level of intellectual understanding, wisdom or character matters when it is rendered useless by a lack of courage to put it into action. When the biggest voice in a locker room is a guy like Incognito that seems like a real problem. 

 

Cyrus gets it.

 

I was just arguing this point the other day. The facade of strength. Real men, tough men, leaders of men -- they don't bully the weak for kicks. They have the balls to stand up to the masses, often alone, and argue for what they know deep down is right. They have the balls to handle mockery and isolation because what they believe in is bigger than just being accepted into the group.

 

Their primary goal isn't to fit in or to exist in the world as it is -- it's to build a world that should be. When you don't have leaders like that in positions of power, the mob of weak men devolves into the worst part of our society. Lord of the Flies.

[Cyrus]

Ah. I thought you were talking about TR.

 

If this whole thing came out in a different light because Martin knocked the guy out, would you have supported him doing so?

 

No I don't think I would. Incognito certainly would have had it coming but it wouldn't have solved the locker room problem.

[Jamalisms]

Cyrus gets it.

 

I was just arguing this point the other day. The facade of strength. Real men, tough men, leaders of men -- they don't bully the weak for kicks. They have the balls to stand up to the masses, often alone, and argue for what they know deep down is right. They have the balls to handle mockery and isolation because what they believe in is bigger than just being accepted into the group.

 

Their primary goal isn't to fit in or to exist in the world as it is -- it's to build a world that should be. When you don't have leaders like that in positions of power, the mob of weak men devolves into the worst part of our society. Lord of the Flies Titans Report.

Haha

[cenj]

These situations are totally different. Was Martin ever brutalized or had his career put in jeopardy? It's kind of ridiculous to make this situation analogous to a rape case, or to a guy that had his eye socket crushed in by a bag of coins. If information comes out that he was actually in physical danger, then I'll change my mind.  Until then, I stand by my point that everyone involved should have handled it differently.

 

Of course it isn't ridiculous -- it's ridiculous to say that Martin's case was different simply because he walked away before it got totally out of hand. His argument is that he feared Incognito was crazy and violent enough that Martin was risking an even worse end than a bag of coins to the face. Don't know if that's true or not, but that seems to be Martin's stance.

 

I said earlier in the thread that there are two separate issues -- this specific incident, and the larger issue of the NFL locker room in general. My posts focus more on the larger issue. I completely understand that on a practical matter, Martin may have fixed the situation by just punching Incognito (though he also might have escalated the situation into something far worse -- no one knows and it's all speculation).

 

But the point is many on here feel that he shouldn't have to do that.

[IsntLifeFunny]

No I don't think I would. Incognito certainly would have had it coming but it wouldn't have solved the locker room problem.

So you wouldn't support someone, who by many of the TR accounts, was "tortured" and "harassed" to the point of having his situation seen as analogous to a rape victim, for physically defending himself? I honestly can't follow the logic.

[IsntLifeFunny]

Of course it isn't ridiculous -- it's ridiculous to say that Martin's case was different simply because he walked away before it got totally out of hand. His argument is that he feared Incognito was crazy and violent enough that Martin was risking an even worse end than a bag of coins to the face. Don't know if that's true or not, but that seems to be Martin's stance.

 

I said earlier in the thread that there are two separate issues -- this specific incident, and the larger issue of the NFL locker room in general. My posts focus more on the larger issue. I completely understand that on a practical matter, Martin may have fixed the situation by just punching Incognito (though he also might have escalated the situation into something far worse -- no one knows and it's all speculation).

 

But the point is many on here feel that he shouldn't have to do that.

It's ridiculous. A rape victim is defenseless. The guy who had his eye crushed in was defenseless, physically accosted, and outnumbered. Both of those cases involve an action already taken and are therefore not analogous to a situation that never took place, to a guy who isn't defenseless.

 

I agree with the rest of your points. The situation should have never escalated this far.

[WG53]

as long as WG thinks I am wrong I know I am doing it right..

No, it means you are 100% wrong.

[Cyrus]

So you wouldn't support someone, who by many of the TR accounts, was "tortured" and "harassed" to the point of having his situation seen as analogous to a rape victim, physically defend himself? I honestly can't follow the logic.

 

The objective wouldn't have been to physically "defend" himself. The point everyone is trying to make, including the Dolphins GM, is that Martin should have gotten in a physical confrontation so he could earn the respect of a low-life like Incognito and therefore potentially put an end to the abuse.

 

Martin is not wrong in thinking that the NFL should have a professional environment where he can "go to work" and do his job. Dealing with psychopaths and having to physically fight or buy your way into a sane working environment is absurdity. Martin is just well-adjusted enough to know that this is not normal or right and probably felt like he had the safety net to walk away from the game if he had to. 

 

Unfortunately a lot of less fortunate guys in the NFL don't have the ability because of their family or economical situation. I'm sure many have wanted to but didn't feel like it was a viable option. I wouldn't want to fall in line with a fool like Incognito either.

[WG53]

It's ridiculous. A rape victim is defenseless. The guy who had his eye crushed in was defenseless, physically accosted, and outnumbered. Both of those cases involve an action already taken and are therefore not analogous to a situation that never took place, to a guy who isn't defenseless.

I agree with the rest of your points. The situation should have never escalated this far.

A rape victim is not necessarily defenseless. A person can be capable of defending themselves and still end up a victim.

[IsntLifeFunny]

The objective wouldn't have been to physically "defend" himself. The point everyone is trying to make, including the Dolphins GM, is that Martin should have gotten in a physical confrontation so he could earn the respect of a low-life like Incognito and therefore potentially put an end to the abuse.

 

Martin is not wrong in thinking that the NFL should have a professional environment where he can "go to work" and do his job. Dealing with psychopaths and having to physically fight or buy your way into a sane working environment is absurdity. Martin is just well-adjusted enough to know that this is not normal or right and probably felt like he had the safety net to walk away from the game if he had to. 

 

Unfortunately a lot of less fortunate guys in the NFL don't have the ability because of their family or economical situation. I'm sure many have wanted to but didn't feel like it was a viable option. I wouldn't want to fall in line with a fool like Incognito either.

I totally agree with this, but it's just the reality of the NFL. If people have such a problem with what's going on in locker rooms across the NFL, then they can stop supporting them with their money and time. This isn't one of those "if you don't like America, then you can just get out". But it's just the reality of having 70 guys being paid to bash each other's brains in on a day to day basis. Craziness happens, and at this point, as evidenced by the GM, the only way to deal with it is to stand up for yourself. The other way to deal with it is to litigate...so we'll see how that plays out.

 

I don't think people should have to go through this shit, either, but then again I don't get paid millions of dollars to play a game.

[IsntLifeFunny]

A rape victim is not necessarily defenseless. A person can be capable of defending themselves and still end up a victim.

 A person may have the capability to defend themselves, but obviously when they become a victim, they are rendered defenseless, or else they wouldn't have become the victim.