Legaltitan

​Right, but inadvertently he chose the perfect example for a stronger point - bad things can happen when an author let's his dream, epic series draw out too long.

​A hell of a long time and he fucked up what could have been an epic, one for the ages, series, and mailed it in at the end to get it done. What's your point?

A dick move? Come on. If Martin wants to keep his books from being spoiled he should sit his fat ass down and write. In my mind whatever the show guys do they are heroes because they have gotten Martin's ass in gear and writing. Combine Martin's writing pace with the 100s of pages he wasted on bullshit in the last couple of books (Tyrion's boat ride :shudder:), and before the show started catching up, I think it was a coin flip as to whether Martin would have ever wrapped up the series. The writers are moving ahead and tightening up plot lines, both of which I have a feeling are having a beneficial effect on Martin. We are coming up on 20 fucking years since the first book was published in this series. Martin needed a kick in the ass.

Fair enough, we'll just have to see what happens.

I think all I, or anyone else , is saying is that Martin basically told to the show writers that Stannis would burn his daughter. I mean they said in an interview that Martin told them that was happening. I suppose they could be lying, or Martin could have lied to them, but that's what they said. Therefore, Stannis burning Shireen is not a departure, even if the motivation is a little different, because he is going to do it in the books also. I am not plugged into the various blogs and message boards on the books, but it seems pretty straightforward. But I never suggested Martin "already wrote it," just that, apparently, he is going to write it.

Yeah, it kind of seems you are arguing with a group of exactly zero persons when you say GRRM has not "written Shireen's death" yet in the books. I certainly never argued that, and unless I missed something never saw anyone else do so. Also, as to Stannis' downfall, and how far gone he was in the book's, let's not forget how, even before he left Dragonstone to sail up north, his appearance had changed in a shocking way to Davos, and he was constantly grinding his teeth in a severe way. Davos is the prototypical "voice of reason" character and he has had huge concerns with Stannis and his actions for quite some time.

​I'm not sure but I lean toward him not believing it, truly. Doesn't mean he still isn't it, though. Again, obviously extremely unlikely but I don't discard any potential outcome.

Agree with your spoiler. Stannis could fit the bill too. Seems unlikely but in martins world who knows? A broad view of the signs could easily point to him (dragon stone, burning stuff for lord of light, etc). its an open issue who that is, or if that prophecy has just been completey misread (not just on who, but also what). Whatever happens there is not going to be a happy feel good ending I'm afraid.

I will concede that the shows portrayal of Stannis has altered him somewhat and paved over some nuance. But not in any fundamental way. The Stannis we have now is not far from the Stannis we had at the end of the books.

True. But still. She obviously knows he won't have a problem with it.

Lol Well I AM a Stannis guy - one of my fav characters - and I feel backed into attacking him. Lol

There was more to it with Edric but unless I am missing something that would have been murder pure and simple. No real justification other than the power in Kings blood. In the books wasn't he going to let the red woman sacrifice Mances baby too? That's why gilly was upset on the ship becUse she had to leave her baby behind and take Mance Baby. And that was a total reach - Mance was no "king" even if kings blood did have power. Now that I think about it that is pretty good evidence for how far gone book Stannis was.

​Yes, two sides of the same coin is a very good way to put it. I largely see it the same way.

​That and the fact that Stannis does seem to want to "get it right." In his mind he belongs on the iron throne because Robert had no legitimate heirs and he is his older brother. But of course a big theme in the books (and the show) is the notion that power is derived from the governed and the ability to gain the trust and favor of the governed. Stannis saying he has a "right" to the iron throne, and a $1.50, will buy him a cup of coffee. Stannis never did really understand the game of thrones, because to him it isn;t a game - he should be king because, well, he should, and that's just that. The irony being his claim to the throne derives from his brother who won the throne in war. The problem with Stannis is: (1) whether he is right, (2) whether it matters if he is right, and (3) and if so, whether being "right" justifies the things he does.

Stannis was ready to kill one of Robert's Bastards way back when and the only thing the guy did was be the unfortunate recipient of "King's blood." He did not limit sacrifices to "those he felt violated the law." And the show did not at all make out that the reason he was sacrificing Shireen was "because he's a mad man or drunk with power." Maybe the writing/directing/acting wasn't the greatest but you missed the point of the scene if that was your takeaway.

​Damn dude. Addressing your last paragraph first, the fact that you call me out for "condescending bullshit" is pretty rich. That's all I'm going to say on that. I am not personally invested enough in these books to start hurling insults. Next, I never said "GRRM said this happened in the books." Maybe I wasn't 100% clear, but what I said was that apparently GRRM wrote or helped write this episode and was approving of Shireen being burned. I have no clue if that will be in the books and never claimed to. And yes, I did get that from the internet. How else would I fucking know? I admit I did not do any investigative reporting to get to the truth of this important issue. I never said Stannis was evil. I said he was always a dick that no one ever liked him. This is made quite obvious in the books. He is and always was a very flawed character who got more flawed as time went on. I am comfortable with his arc in the TV show. Again, who is being condescending now, when for like the tenth time in this thread you act like you are the only one that understands the "nuance" of Stannis. Ive read the books straight through twice. I don't claim to have an encyclopedic knowledge but I feel pretty comfortable with my understanding of the characters. We get it - you are very clever and are a book superfan, and you understand all of Stannis' nuances. You win, ok? But guess what? Some of us also understand the idea of nuances. Stannis is nuanced, I agree. The show has smoothed over some of those, but fleshed out some other nuances. You think they killed his character, and others like me feel like this Shereen burning was fairly consistent with where his character has been heading. But don't come up in here talking about being tired of my condescending bullshit. You have spoken down to pretty much everyone and claimed you understand more than almost anyone, including the writers on the show. Maybe that's true but god damn dude take it down a fucking notch. Or carry on, but if you do don't call out others for being condescending because when you get all high and mighty like you have in this thread (over a TV show no less) don't be shocked if you are responded to in kind.

The writing has definitely taken a step back this season. But the step back in writing is not nearly as drastic as Martin's stepback in writing between books 3 and books 4 and 5.

​No one likes Stannis. No one ever did. He was always stiff and insufferable and jaundiced. And now he is lead around by his dick by a religious fanatic. That's all in the book, BTW.

​lol WTF are you talking about? I clicked on the link, and I commented. Sorry I wasn't glued to my iphone in breathless anticipation of your response. It's just a show. Relax and enjoy it. We are getting super nerd novels on HBO with a big budget and special effects. Martin himself is responsible for many deviations because of how awful the storytelling was in books 4 and 5. If they were shit to read at times, imagine trying to show that shit on television. The show isn't perfect, and it steps on a lot of nerd toes, obviously, but it's fun and awesome in its own right and we are pretty lucky to get what we are getting. Too bad you couldn't right the show so we could see Tyrion sitting on a boat for weeks on end, and the always exciting "Young Griff" plotline and other shit that was just a total waste. If the show writers go too far sometimes I'm fine if overall this train keeps rolling. Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. And my understanding was Martin helped write the last episode. If that's wrong then fine.

​It's Martin's character and he just wrote that Stannis kills her. I think Martin knows more about his characters than you. lol at nerd rage, esp when it's misplaced.

​By whatever name you call it, Vanity and Pride are still Vanity and Pride. That is the point of Stannis' character.

​First, pretty sure Stannis has always been a dick obsessed with his claim to the throne and completely given over to Mellisandre. Totally within character for Stannis. And secon, Shareen's death written by Martin himself.

Another point is that a regular sized valyrian steel blade while rare and certainly likely to be passed from father to son is not quite in the same category of the truly legendary house blades like Ice and the Tarley family one, two-handed great swords made of Valyrian steel.

How so? jamal seemed to be saying how unbelievable it would be that the sword would be given to snow vs his family. The response being once Mormont took the black the Nights Watch became his family. What am I missing?

​Well except for that whole part about how you give up all titles, lands, claims, family etc when you take the black. It's in the oath and all. That sword went right where it should have gone - it belonged to the wall more than it belonged to his former house.