Legaltitan

Putting the head on Robb's body brings full circle the destruction of the family Ned started. It started when he accepted the position of Hand of the King, but the seminole moment in his becoming hand of the King was when his new responsibilities and ties to the Lannisters forced him to decapitate Sansa's Direwolf. It isnt long until Ned is beheaded, and now his son and his son's wolf has been beheaded. Those wolves were meant for those kids, and the North doesn't forget.

???? I have read the books twice and watch the show. I aleady know the differences. I've read both and while the show glosses over alot the upshot is the same. Theon takes over. Pisses everyone off. Kills beloved guys that he grew up with. Fake kills the stark boys. Plans to hold ground at Winterfell against overwhelming odds knowing he will die. Ramsay with Bolton warriors come and take Winterfell back and imprison Theon. There was a large part of it left out, yes. If you are using this to support your prior argument I still stick to what I said - many things, sometimes pretty big ones, have been changed in the interest of combining characters, simplifying storylines (for the better, IMO - god knows Martin doesn't understand brevity) and making the show more appealilng not only to viewers, but to a much larger audience than the books are directed at. But at the end of the day they have not yet changed, and I believe will not change, major things critical to the theme and plot of the books. They are rather working dirctly with Martin to be sure they are in line with his vision and plans for the series. Glad we agree on Bolton, though.

In all seriousness that is more likely to be a factor than the torturer giving two shits for Robb Stark.

Don't want to go into detail to avoid spoilers, but I think some scenes have made it abundantly clear he WILL have a big part. Best not to say anything else.

X

No way - family always first with Tywin.

Thanks, that's what I was thinking. The whole topic started because of the show, not the books. Regardless, both the show and the books are killer. And never forget, Tywin is in control of absolutely everything. Until he's not . . .

Please calm down. No doubt they have changed alot to make the show more streamlined and visually appealing and a whole lot of things. But they are not going to change something as huge as who was behind the red wedding.

This is certainly true, but does not conflict at all with what I said. I think it's both.

ok. Hard to tell with CMJ. I guess disregard everything else above. You do realize HBO isn't "interpreting" anything, with regard to major plot lines, right? They are working in lock step with the author.

The book on't help. They made it much less ambiguous in the show than in the book. In the book it is not until much later that it becomes clear what happened. (edited to remove spoilers) In the show they practically beat you over the head with it. I guess Bolton could have said "Tywin Lannister, with whom I am working in concert in furtherance of my own self interest, sends his regards."

Ok, so now you concede he was behind it, you kjust don't think he deserves that much credit? Just because it wasn't the most ingenuous plan ever hatched doesn't mean it wasnt a masterstroke.

Because, despite getting his ass handed to him on the battlefield, he was able to win the war without losing a single more man on the field, after basically telling his daughter that letters win war more than soldiers.

???? Bolton wants the north. He sent his bastard son to "help take back Winterfell" and next thing you know Winterfell is sacked and Theon is being tortured on a device identical to the Bolton sigil. And then next thing you know he is stabbing the King in the North. Bolton wants to rule the North.

Bolton and Frey just killed their liege lord and daughter of their liege lord, respectively, as well as whiped out their entire armies. You think they did this on a lark? I'll make it simple: (1) Bolton is pledged to Rob out of the Starks being the liege lords of the Boltons (2) Frey is pledged to House Tully, and tenuously pledges to Rob in promise for a marriage (3) Rob pisses off Frey and insults his honr (4) Tywin writes a bunch of letters and makes a bunch of promises (and tells his daughter this is how wars are won) (5) Bolton lets Jaime go back to his daddy and makes damn sure it is clear to Jaime that he had nothing to do with his hand getting cut off (6) The band PLAYS THE SONG ABOUT LANNISTER REVENGE AND HOW THE LANNISTERS WIPED OUT AN ENTIRE HOUSE (7) The Freys and Boltons procede to wipe out an entire house, turning on their oaths simultaneously and working in concert with one another. Perhaps this show isn't for you.

Um, you need to pay a little closer attention. This is 100% all Tywin's doing. Sure he used Frey and the Boltons, but this is Tywin's show. Wow.

oops, you're right. Wrong Corleone.

This.

It absolutely did. Do you live under a rock? Talk to anyone who has seen the show and not read the books, from the very smart to the not so smart, and almost to a man they were completely taken off guard, completely blown away, completely distrubed, upset and picking their jaw off the floor. What more do you want?

Me, too, and I loved the books. I never had any doubt HBO would pull it off. And I have NEVEr watched something with as much nerves and adrenalin as I watched that episode. Man to go from Ygritte's stare of death after Jon leaves, back to Frey's castle, my heart was literally racing and pounding in my chest. When they played that Lannister song I pointed it out to my wife and I could barely even say the words. And then the utter brutality of it. I don't get any sense of change from the book in terms of fight vs. massacre. Yeah the Great John and some others made a bit of a fuss, but it was an outright complete and utter slaughter/shooting fish in a barrel in the books. There were just more characters in the books that couldn't have been captured right on the show. At the end of the day, it was a complete brutal massacre in the books, and whether the wolf took out a couple of guys or what makes no difference. The show had to make sure people understood this was a master stroke by Tywin Lannister, like when Michael Corleone was taken out, with absolutely no room for ambiguity. The books could afford some - the show could not or the effect would have been ruined.

I thought they telegraphed it well without killing the shock value. There was foreboding sprinkled through several episodes. Seriously, with all of the other story lines going on it is hard to imagine them pulling everything off any better.

Big fan of the books and I feel like they NAILED the red wedding.

You lost me.

doing the book justice /= replacement for the books

On books versus show, the show is following the books pretty close but diverging in significant ways. Most if not all of the divergence is doing nothing but helping Martin's meandering story that adds too many characters, and making for better overall TV. And while the divergances have been significant, they have stayed very true to the theme and feel of the books, which is probably why you don't notice if you haven't read the books in some time. There are already several instances where two charcters have been combined into one, and lengthy stuff written straight out of the show. Danaerys's story is where they seem to be taking the most liberties with tightening it up and truncating it, but I am cool with anything they do there because some of that stuff was brutal in the books. I have a feeling as they go forward you will see large parts lopped straight off of her story.