oldschool Posted October 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 3 hours ago, TitanDuckFan said: Think about the Netherlands and their tax rates the next time you wand to extol the virtues of Euro-Socialism. The guy I was talking to wasn't bitching about it. In fact he said the people have confidence in the government to address things like climate change and other big issues of the day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
titanruss Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 On 10/26/2017 at 2:22 AM, oldschool said: I'm in Amsterdam for work and had an interesting conversation with a local. According to this dude all vehicle purchases are taxed at 38%. On top of that any income over $60K is taxed between 48-52%. Think about the Netherlands next time you feel like bitching about your tax rate. the netherlands is an incredible place to live. they have a MUCH better quality of life. - safer -better healthcare -better undergraduate/secondary/primary school education -free college education -happier people -less mental health -more physically healthy -longer life-expectancy -available(fun) drugs -cheaper (necessary) drugs, -less rape and sexual assault -available and clean prostitutes -less disease -less violent crime -larger middle class -more vacation days and more world travelling -better internet .... etc. they are dabbling in the ideas of forced shorter work days and work weeks.. as well as free citizen salaries. all that with being one of the most creative and socially advanced countries in the world. they are cutting edge on technology and industry and development as well. fuck man, take 60% of my money if we get those kind of benefits. money doesnt make you happy.. all the things listed above make you happy. creating things make you happy, making a difference makes you happy... you can do all that in those countries even with the high tax rate. people harp on money being the end-all-be-all... it's not. quality of life is the important thing. the assumption is that money buys you that, to a certain point it does sometimes.... but it takes a lot more money in the US to have the same quality of life as in countries like the netherlands with high tax rates... and you have to isolate yourself from 99% of the country to do so. sweden/norway/denmark/iceland/finland/netherlands/estonia... etc.. they have it figured out. people arent nearly as greedy and dont care nearly as much about $$$$$$ when life is taken care of for you. it would be one thing if it was shitty healthcare.. but it isnt. their lines really are no shorter and the care is no worse - often better because the doctors are not incentivized by drug companies or trying to prolong your care. further, even if you are a millionaire - certain medical issues can drain you completely in the USA. that is not the case in those countries. you are more protected there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justafan Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 I think it's important to note that high taxes don't guarantee ROI. I've been Estonia and Denmark. Can't say I've been to any of those other countries on that list. Both Estonia and Denmark, as well as Poland and most of Northern Europe, are lovely places. Truly. That doesn't mean I want the United States to emulate them. Should we pick their brain and be willing to try new ideas? Absolutely. Should we forsake our own values of free market, capitalism, and the freedom to be left alone by the government to succeed on your own merits just because it seems to be working somewhere else? That, i'm not so sure about. Personally, I think we should be looking at cutting funding to a lot of our biggest programs and raise taxes. If you take a look at the budget as it stands, we can't pay for the things we are doing right now without borrowing so why are we looking to cut taxes? We should be cutting spending first and then adjust the taxes according to whatever the people deem as the absolute necessary amount to spend. I think it's important to note that the money the government is taking is money that has been rightfully produced by the society and in turn an individual in some way. We owe to the people we are taking money from, as a society, to ensure that money is being spent fairly and wisely. Right now, I would argue it isn't, the government generally sucks and is inefficient, and conservatives have a legitimate argument that it would be stupid to raise taxes on those who are producing just to throw it away into the government black hole. Having said all that, I'll just go back to my two cents: I think taxes are too low across much of the country and we're spending on the wrong things and getting a terrible ROI. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
titanruss Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Justafan said: I think it's important to note that high taxes don't guarantee ROI. I've been Estonia and Denmark. Can't say I've been to any of those other countries on that list. Both Estonia and Denmark, as well as Poland and most of Northern Europe, are lovely places. Truly. That doesn't mean I want the United States to emulate them. Should we pick their brain and be willing to try new ideas? Absolutely. Should we forsake our own values of free market, capitalism, and the freedom to be left alone by the government to succeed on your own merits just because it seems to be working somewhere else? That, i'm not so sure about. Personally, I think we should be looking at cutting funding to a lot of our biggest programs and raise taxes. If you take a look at the budget as it stands, we can't pay for the things we are doing right now without borrowing so why are we looking to cut taxes? We should be cutting spending first and then adjust the taxes according to whatever the people deem as the absolute necessary amount to spend. I think it's important to note that the money the government is taking is money that has been rightfully produced by the society and in turn an individual in some way. We owe to the people we are taking money from, as a society, to ensure that money is being spent fairly and wisely. Right now, I would argue it isn't, the government generally sucks and is inefficient, and conservatives have a legitimate argument that it would be stupid to raise taxes on those who are producing just to throw it away into the government black hole. Having said all that, I'll just go back to my two cents: I think taxes are too low across much of the country and we're spending on the wrong things and getting a terrible ROI. Yeah I wouldn’t for a nanosecond trust our government with any more money than we already give them. so I agree with most of your post. But most of those countries in Northern Europe have as many or not more small businesses/millionaires/billionaires per Capita as we do. They don’t inhibit growth or new business at all... they do regulate or even run some industries (depending on the country - alcohol, pharmacy, certain doctors, utility, telecom, food, cosmetics) but those industries truly need heavy regulation or even full government control. The idea that you need OUR system to be financially successful is flawed. capitalism only works if it’s responsible capitalism. The end-game of a truly free market allows the largest companies to crush the competition (with many methods) and inhibits growth and safety much more than regulation ever would. to me the current direction of US capitalism doesn’t benefit small business as a system anymore than most european interpretations. It doesn’t create healthier / happier humans either. Social capitalism works... its not pure socialism... we aren’t pure capitalistic by definition anymore. It’s just people getting over the word “social” that keeps us from advancing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justafan Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, titanruss said: Yeah I wouldn’t for a nanosecond trust our government with any more money than we already give them. so I agree with most of your post. But most of those countries in Northern Europe have as many or not more small businesses/millionaires/billionaires per Capita as we do. They don’t inhibit growth or new business at all... they do regulate or even run some industries (depending on the country - alcohol, pharmacy, certain doctors, utility, telecom, food, cosmetics) but those industries truly need heavy regulation or even full government control. The idea that you need OUR system to be financially successful is flawed. capitalism only works if it’s responsible capitalism. The end-game of a truly free market allows the largest companies to crush the competition (with many methods) and inhibits growth and safety much more than regulation ever would. to me the current direction of US capitalism doesn’t benefit small business as a system anymore than most european interpretations. It doesn’t create healthier / happier humans either. Social capitalism works... its not pure socialism... we aren’t pure capitalistic by definition anymore. It’s just people getting over the word “social” that keeps us from advancing. Lots of truth in this. I would only caveat caution is wise when talking about sweeping changes to an economy and a way of life. There is evidence that "social capitalism" as you put it, does indeed work. I think we can certainly learn from that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 There is a huge role for government when it comes to regulating the business world. Without government involvement, the business world is a demolition derby. first there’s the whole “you didn’t build that” comment. Obama was right. Businesses don’t build roads or bridges or ports (other than construction companies). The infrastructure that is built by the government is necessary to make businesses successful. And over the last few decades, the US has been woefully underspending on infrastructure and it shows from coast to coast. Conservatives want the government to spend no money and one consequence is a crumbling infrastructure. And yes, we need taxes to pay for infrastructure. The tax code certainly needs to be overhauled. Corporations get tons of loopholes that other businesses can’t take advantage of. Small businesses pay as individuals. There are so many changes that need to be made and it could make life easier/fairer for businesses. But businesses still need to pay taxes. Regulations are necessary. Some are good, some are bad, but being anti-regulation in general is stupid. Cutting regulations means letting companies pollute our water and air more. It means letting them build unsafe products that can get people hurt or killed. It means letting them practice unsafe financial practices that reward themselves but hurt the rest of the country. In the end, we need regulations. Government subsidies can be beneficial, or they can be wasteful/harmful. There are plenty of examples of both. The computer industry exists because of massive government investment. The space program, both public and now private, too. And yet subsidies on things like oil and sugar make no sense and are frankly harmful. Subsidies may not be necessary anymore in the era of private funding but they certainly can be beneficial. The government has a huge role to play. We just need the government to function rationally again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted November 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 13 hours ago, titanruss said: the netherlands is an incredible place to live. they have a MUCH better quality of life. - safer -better healthcare -better undergraduate/secondary/primary school education -free college education -happier people -less mental health -more physically healthy -longer life-expectancy -available(fun) drugs -cheaper (necessary) drugs, -less rape and sexual assault -available and clean prostitutes -less disease -less violent crime -larger middle class -more vacation days and more world travelling -better internet .... etc. they are dabbling in the ideas of forced shorter work days and work weeks.. as well as free citizen salaries. all that with being one of the most creative and socially advanced countries in the world. they are cutting edge on technology and industry and development as well. fuck man, take 60% of my money if we get those kind of benefits. money doesnt make you happy.. all the things listed above make you happy. creating things make you happy, making a difference makes you happy... you can do all that in those countries even with the high tax rate. people harp on money being the end-all-be-all... it's not. quality of life is the important thing. the assumption is that money buys you that, to a certain point it does sometimes.... but it takes a lot more money in the US to have the same quality of life as in countries like the netherlands with high tax rates... and you have to isolate yourself from 99% of the country to do so. sweden/norway/denmark/iceland/finland/netherlands/estonia... etc.. they have it figured out. people arent nearly as greedy and dont care nearly as much about $$$$$$ when life is taken care of for you. it would be one thing if it was shitty healthcare.. but it isnt. their lines really are no shorter and the care is no worse - often better because the doctors are not incentivized by drug companies or trying to prolong your care. further, even if you are a millionaire - certain medical issues can drain you completely in the USA. that is not the case in those countries. you are more protected there. Good post. One of things I noticed while I was there was how little stress people appeared to be under. Even in business settings, people were generally pretty happy. As an east coast guy, it really stood out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
titanruss Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 subsidies should have expiration dates. re-evaluate every 2-3 years. they are a stimulus - not a reliance package. if an industry cant stand on its own it should fail. thats capitalism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 19 hours ago, titanruss said: subsidies should have expiration dates. re-evaluate every 2-3 years. they are a stimulus - not a reliance package. if an industry cant stand on its own it should fail. thats capitalism. The government isn’t capitalist. It works best as a check against capitalism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 On 11/2/2017 at 6:31 AM, Soxcat said: I see your point but you see the government as some separate business entity. The government isnt isn’t a business entity. It is the government. It is inherently above any business, accountable to the people and not to shareholders. Quote It is the people and mostly because of business activity that the government has tax revenue to begin with. Businesses do build bridges and roads and such. The government just pays for it with money from..... people and business. They go hand in hand. If businesses are successful, thus hiring and making a profit, the government doesn't have the money to do those things you say they are "woefully underspending". Government builds most of the infrastructure. The fact that they collect taxes from businesses and individuals doesn’t change that. Quote Obviously we need regulation. In fact it is equally ignorant to be on either side of the extreme. The problem is liberals see business almost like the enemy. They need to be taxed and regulated because if we don't it is a demolition derby. But in reality most business and corporations try to do the right thing. We all need guidelines. But liberals never met a regulation they didn't like so you have the other side always fighting on the opposite end. Either way, the most important thing is to assure business can be competitive in a word marketplace and that the playing field is level. Obviously we need environmental and safety regulations. But libs always go back to that like that is a big deal or something. Even the managers of a business want clean water and air despite what you might believe. So you get permits and abide by them. So what? However the gains environmentally, of just arbitrarily lowering standards, doesn't make the environment that much cleaner but might cost a company millions to be in compliance. Guess who pays for those millions? We do. In some liberal fantasy land Mr. Business does but it all comes back to the end user. It just adds to ther cost of production. By the way, corporations or the terminology seems to be some big oil company in your view. No one argues that all regulations are better or that corporations are all big oil. Stop whacking at your well worn liberal strawman and have a real debate. Quote Their are all types and sizes of corporations. I agree the tax loop holes and such need to be removed in general but how they got there is mainly because of special interest on both sides or attempt by the government to impact the free market in some way. IMO individuals should be the ones to pay. Corporations are a false person. The people in the corporation and share holders should pay the taxes. All taxing is just a way for the government to double dip and those taxes are just another expense that gets passed on to the customer. shareholders do pay taxes. And I’m all for cutting taxes on corporations in exchange for increased taxes on shareholders (along with banning corporations from things like political donations). If corporate profits are all sent to shareholders then they do pay more. Of course there are many kinds of corporations and sometimes this is already the case. But as long as there are corporations with big profits that don’t get paid out to shareholders then they will continue to pay taxes. Quote Subsidies, are again, because of special interests lobbying for their cause. In some cases they are there beneficially to maintain pricing so farmers aren't at risk. But I agree, in a free market they should be few and far between and only done with great care. Subsidies for oil aren't always a bad thing either but again, the big oil syndrome liberals have means we have to hate anything that benefits big oil. Oil specifically has been quite profitable and doesn’t need subsidies. Subsidies should be for businesses that need financial assistance for one reason or another. Quote You also confuse government programs in space and the early investments in the internet almost as reasons these industries exist. Really? Sure they jump start the technology but we had a huge movement in technology after the start because of companies making dramatic improvements in innovation and productivity. Using the liberal economic perspective we wouldn't even have flat screen TVs now or they would be ridiculously expensive. Look at all the technology coming out of places like Russia...... not. Those innovations and productivity gains benefit the business and the consumer (better products lower prices). I know in the liberal mind Al Gore invented the internet. But countless billions have gone into new innovation and productivity gains and they have benefited everyone. That is how the system works. The US government absolutely is behind the creation of the modern American tech sector. Government investment through organizations like NASA and the military, as well as through public universities, is the only reason we had companies that were able to develop computer hardware. No one is suggesting the government created all of this technology, but it all exists because the government's massive funding. Businesses would have never succeeded without demand and the government was the customer. Nowadays China is becoming the world's financial super power because their government subsidizes their capitalist companies and infrastructure. They are basically running the playbook that made America a super power, a playbook we discarded. When they have surpassed America, you can thank conservative ideology for turning the world over to China... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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