scine09 Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Joe Thomas is a much more important player than Johnson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scine09 Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I wouldn't mind paying Roos. Scine would agree with me. Him and Stewart ain't even 29. absolutely. Pay them both now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OILERMAN Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 All the players signed this off season to a massive contract are way more important than a RB. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragidealist Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 All the players signed this off season to a massive contract are way more important than a RB. I think you've convinced yourself that RB is less important than it is, but more specifically that CJ is less important to this team than he is. Looking at some advanced stats- Winning probability added specifically. Forget where CJ is ranked specifically, because his winning probability add is going to be overall affected by the team's ability to win and score. Let's just look at 2010 positions. The top five range from for WPA QBs 4.8 to 1.7 WRs 2.5 to 1.8 RBs 1.2 to 1.0 TEs 1.7 to 1.3 OLs 2.5 to 1.6 DEs 2.0 to 1.4 DTs 1.5 to 1.3 Lbs 2.7 to 2.2 CBS 2.5 to 1.6 Ss 2.4 to 1.7 Every position has a top and bottom range. Running backs and DT's have the lowest range. So in part, in the big scheme of things RBS are generally less important. That is where your argument, in my opinion, should end. Where I think you are making a mistake is letting that carry you to absolutes and say things like we can win as many games with Ringer as CJ. I know its an exageration, but what you are also doing is lumping all positions together. If the Titans could have Brees or CJ? Who would they pick? Brees of course. In a flat top comparison, this RB value makes perfect sense. But would you choose Albert Haynesworth in his prime over Flacco? I would hope so. So as much as DT's and RB's may have below average position value- In the end, its not about positions. ITs about individual production and value. I know you've made some arguments about CJ's value. I think you've been a bit hypocritcial about it. On one hand, you freely tout Vince and the effect his inability to throw has had on the team's offensive production. But you convienetly forget that when you talk about CJ's value to the team. This team has an aging, game manager qb, a injury prone and moronic WR, and a young rookie qb to build their offense around. We have a defense that you have said several times is going to have trouble getting to the qb. I understand that you would rather the team take their lumps this year and not worry about being competitive. But it's not going to happen for a variety of reasons. Locker is still going to take multiple years to develop before he is ready to carry a team on his back. So the only way this team can be competitive and the best way to develop a young rookie qb, is to have a very good running game. That starts with the Oline but is highly dependent as well on the quality of the running back. So despite where the RB position may rank in the big scheme of things, CJ's value to this team is a lot higher than that. I don't know what that will translate in terms of money and cash, but in the end I think its his value to this particular team that is going to set his eventual contract value; not some league positional value. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OILERMAN Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I know you've made some arguments about CJ's value. I think you've been a bit hypocritcial about it. On one hand, you freely tout Vince and the effect his inability to throw has had on the team's offensive production. But you convienetly forget that when you talk about CJ's value to the team. This team has an aging, game manager qb, a injury prone and moronic WR, and a young rookie qb to build their offense around. We have a defense that you have said several times is going to have trouble getting to the qb. First of all you point out I've said RB is not an important position and then post a chart backing up my stance? Explain more in detail what VY's lack of production has to do with me forgetting to talk about CJ's value to the team? And what does all the weaknesses you mention have to do with signing CJ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OILERMAN Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 So the only way this team can be competitive and the best way to develop a young rookie qb, is to have a very good running game. That starts with the Oline but is highly dependent as well on the quality of the running back. So despite where the RB position may rank in the big scheme of things, CJ's value to this team is a lot higher than that. In 2008 this team was 13-3 because they had a dominant defense, A QB that made no mistakes and a solid running game. In 2009 and 2010 they still had CJ but the other areas suffered and the team fell apart. One of the seasons CJ set the record for yds from scrimmage, they beat no one that season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragidealist Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 First of all you point out I've said RB is not an important position and then post a chart backing up my stance? Explain more in detail what VY's lack of production has to do with me forgetting to talk about CJ's value to the team? And what does all the weaknesses you mention have to do with signing CJ? Yes, its a starting point in agreement. You also see in the same stats that back that up, also show the value of DTs? Yet Haynesworth value to the team was a lot larger than what a positional value would have stated. The "weaknesses" comment is just a way of saying I don't buy into your argument yet. I am not saying you are completely wrong... yet. But those are the points that are not convincing to me. Teams game planned for one guy last year and the year before on offense - CJ. When we had a basic game manager, CJ looked almsot unstoppable. Yet when Vince came in CJ couldn't get passed the line of scrimmage. His stats and production were directly tied to the rest of the offense- which was tied to Vince. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragidealist Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 In 2008 this team was 13-3 because they had a dominant defense, A QB that made no mistakes and a solid running game. In 2009 and 2010 they still had CJ but the other areas suffered and the team fell apart. One of the seasons CJ set the record for yds from scrimmage, they beat no one that season. The qb was able to play a conservative no mistake game because we depended on CJ so much. CJ was what we built our offense around when we went 13-3. When he went down in the playoffs, our offense was non existent. It wasn't just built on a "solid" running game. It was built around the only dynamic playmaker that the team had. It was successful because of two elite players and a several solid players. Those two elite players were CJ and Big Al. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragidealist Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 In 2009 and 2010 they still had CJ but the other areas suffered and the team fell apart. One of the seasons CJ set the record for yds from scrimmage, they beat no one that season. Isn't that kind of a duh factor? Even a great qb has trouble winning without a defense, running game, and no wrs. They can do it, but asking a RB to do that is silly? So would asking a WR, yet the league values those highly. Its not just about positions, its about playmakers and who the team needs to succeed. This team, right now, needs CJ to succeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OILERMAN Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 You also see in the same stats that back that up, also show the value of DTs? Yet Haynesworth value to the team was a lot larger than what a positional value would have stated. Although AH was a DT his real value was that of a pass rusher. Pass Rushers are probably only behind QB in terms of importance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imemtitan Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Yes, its a starting point in agreement. You also see in the same stats that back that up, also show the value of DTs? Yet Haynesworth value to the team was a lot larger than what a positional value would have stated. How many elite Pass rushing DT's are there in the league? 2? 3? Suh is really the only one I can think of other than a motivated Haynesworth. I think that would skew the numbers on DT, from our own experience I think you can say an elite DT has a bigger effect on games than a RB. Another thing is what is the drop off from the best running back to the worst? .2? I think that is the crux of a lot of the arguments for not paying CJ a huge salary, the drop off from an elite back to an average back isn't that large. People are acting like losing CJ would be the equivalent of going from Brady to Painter, but it is more like going from Brady to Romo. Outside maybe two people (Scine and Zeppelin) I haven't seen anyone against making CJ the highest paid running back in the league. This is purely about this ego, 20 million guaranteed or 30 million guaranteed the kid is set for life, when the team isn't selling out tickets cause fans can't afford them, it is pretty hard to swallow a player holding out because 20-40 million isn't enough. For the guys that are saying 'pay the man', where do you draw the line? 50 million? 60 million? 100 million? Personally I'd offer 15-20% more than the highest RB contract, and/or offer a long term 6-7 year contract heavily backloaded and incentive based so that he could save face by on paper having an elite playmaker contract but he would have to sustain play at a high level to earn it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragidealist Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Although AH was a DT his real value was that of a pass rusher. Pass Rushers are probably only behind QB in terms of importance lol I thought it was positions? Doesn't that support my point? Well then- Although CJ is a RB his real value is that of a dynamic playmaker. Dynamic playmakers are only behind QB in terms of importance on offense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragidealist Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 How many elite Pass rushing DT's are there in the league? 2? 3? Suh is really the only one I can think of other than a motivated Haynesworth. I think that would skew the numbers on DT, from our own experience I think you can say an elite DT has a bigger effect on games than a RB. That's the point. Its not just about the positions they play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OILERMAN Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 lol I thought it was positions. Well then- Although CJ is a RB his real value is that of a dynamic playmaker. Dynamic playmakers are only behind QB in terms of importance on offense. I've always said QBs and pass rushers are most important, I don't care if the guy is a DE, DT or LB. Different schemes ask different things from the same position. LTs are the next important position on offense after QB. The Titans obviously disagree with your assessment of him being a dynamic playmaker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OILERMAN Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Its not just about the positions they play. OK we agree on this, this isn't an issue You're the one who posted the position chart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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