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Bottom line the show is still good and enjoyable however it took a hit when it passed the books. All of the examples in the article are valid and it really hammers home the difference between real writers and TV writers. There was so much dumb shit in seasons 6 and 7 it's hard to keep track of.

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16 minutes ago, oldschool said:

Bottom line the show is still good and enjoyable however it took a hit when it passed the books. All of the examples in the article are valid and it really hammers home the difference between real writers and TV writers. There was so much dumb shit in seasons 6 and 7 it's hard to keep track of.

Sure, but GRRM can’t keep to a 1 novel/season per year schedule and he doesn’t even have a production budget to deal with. 

 

It would have have been better if they had the entire book series to work from before they started (or at least finished). But George couldn’t keep up with that pace. I’m honestly not sure what D&D could have done differently to move the story along to fit in with a TV schedule. Yes, there are logical holes in there, but those are probably tough to avoid in a series like this when time is short.

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24 minutes ago, oldschool said:

Bottom line the show is still good and enjoyable however it took a hit when it passed the books. All of the examples in the article are valid and it really hammers home the difference between real writers and TV writers. There was so much dumb shit in seasons 6 and 7 it's hard to keep track of.

...And then there's the whole shit-storm of Dorne they created.

 

1 minute ago, Starkiller said:

Sure, but GRRM can’t keep to a 1 novel/season per year schedule and he doesn’t even have a production budget to deal with. 

 

It would have have been better if they had the entire book series to work from before they started (or at least finished). But George couldn’t keep up with that pace. I’m honestly not sure what D&D could have done differently to move the story along to fit in with a TV schedule. Yes, there are logical holes in there, but those are probably tough to avoid in a series like this when time is short.

Why not keep close to the books that were complete (Feast, Dance) and then play out natural consequences from there?  As I mentioned above, the whole Dorne story they did was garbage and then they hastily aborted it.  The problem that everyone can agree on is that the show was too rushed at the end.  They had plenty of material to work with to enable the "pieces" to move into place.  They did weird shit with the Greyjoys and trimmed out two other main characters from that arc.  There's all of Dorne.  There's Tyrion's adventure in Essos with fAegon.  And I'm not even advocating for Brienne's story arc to be included in full (even though I enjoyed reading it).

 

They had self-imposed constrictions of number of episodes and seasons (and I get it, 10 years is a long time).  But there is plenty they could do differently.  

Going back to the Greyjoys, they started cutting corners by having Yara sail COMPLETELY AROUND Westeros to save Theon but then give up vs a naked Ramsey holding knives.  I would be interested in the discussion regarding that small moment - was it a production matter to say they sailed around rather than ride on horseback across land?

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11 minutes ago, Starkiller said:

BTW, I’m hoping that Rothfuss gets that last Kingkiller Chronicle book out before the movie and series happen. And at least he only has 1 book to go (presumably). 

Good luck on sentence 1. And good luck on sentence 2.

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There is way, way too much storyline in the books to include in a TV show. At least a 10 hour a season show. Maybe if HBO gave them 15 hours a season. Regardless, they had to streamline the plot to keep the story focused and still get to the destination.

 

As for Dorne, the book storyline is shit there, too...

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I'd argue there's less storyline than in first three seasons, which they converted well. I enjoy the narrative of books 4 and 5 but it certainly is a belabored subject. That's intentional for the books but a show could skip the belaboring and still address the same subjects and characters.

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16 minutes ago, Jamalisms said:

I'd argue there's less storyline than in first three seasons, which they converted well. I enjoy the narrative of books 4 and 5 but it certainly is a belabored subject. That's intentional for the books but a show could skip the belaboring and still address the same subjects and characters.

Books 4 and 5 are massive tomes. Books 1-3 were way easier to edit down into a TV season without drastic changes. I think you can easily look at what major plot points were changed from the book and (mostly) you can see that they needed to cut things from the plot to fit into the time allotted to them.

 

Dorne needed to be there because they had to kill Myrcella. But they didn’t need the rest of the plot from the book with Oldtown or Quentyn or FAegon.

 

Sansa didn’t stick around the Eyrie. Whatever plot is there for her got shifted to Winterfell because they had to off the Boltons. They were good villains and Sansa needed more screen time so it worked out putting them together. I think this worked well in the show (rape reactions aside). We have no idea what GRRM is planning to compare with.

 

FAegon himself is just an unnecessary component. I’m glad he is in the books but it’s easy to just remove him entirely from the show plot if he truly is a fake. They could have taken up the equivalent of an entire extra season just on FAegon's arc alone.

 

Arya and the Faceless Men pretty well followed the plot the books have used so far. I get why people don’t like how it ended, and GRRM will probably end it better. But they needed an expedited ending to fit their schedules. If the Waif had simply not stabbed her so seriously before their final showdown I think it would have been fine. The big argument seems to be that she couldn’t have healed so quickly.

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48 minutes ago, Starkiller said:

There is way, way too much storyline in the books to include in a TV show. At least a 10 hour a season show. Maybe if HBO gave them 15 hours a season. Regardless, they had to streamline the plot to keep the story focused and still get to the destination.

 

As for Dorne, the book storyline is shit there, too...

I agree that streamlining was necessary.  Dorne is similar to Dany's story in that it is so separate from the rest of the Westeros stories.  Dany's is interesting because she has dragons.  Many have complained about the story lagging in Slaver's Bay as GRRM untangles the culture and politics of Slaver's Bay in a realistic fashion rather than a massive slaughter to make it convenient.  In the books, Dorne still has a part to play at least.  

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13 hours ago, titanruss said:

Nobody who watches the shows gives a damn about the swords. Thats just for the book junkies. 

 

But yeah.. Sam should have to answer for stealing it. They could have just avoided it altogether and had somebody grab it at the war when they got burned up. 

 

The arya storyline is what bothered me. zero consequences there. 

The jet packing was bad

jon is a bit contrived and his dead uncle coming out of nowhere to save him needs more explaination or it just feels like they are contriving some shit. 

theres plenty to complain about ...

 

but all in all, they had to write a couple of seasons with nothing to go on and not fuck it up too bad for when GRRM comes in to help clean up the finish.  they did .. just OK. more generic pop writing but its sufficed and had entertainment value. 

 

we'll see how the final season plays out. 

This is a very fair assessment. 

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1 hour ago, Starkiller said:

Books 4 and 5 are massive tomes. Books 1-3 were way easier to edit down into a TV season without drastic changes. I think you can easily look at what major plot points were changed from the book and (mostly) you can see that they needed to cut things from the plot to fit into the time allotted to them.

 

Dorne needed to be there because they had to kill Myrcella. But they didn’t need the rest of the plot from the book with Oldtown or Quentyn or FAegon.

 

Sansa didn’t stick around the Eyrie. Whatever plot is there for her got shifted to Winterfell because they had to off the Boltons. They were good villains and Sansa needed more screen time so it worked out putting them together. I think this worked well in the show (rape reactions aside). We have no idea what GRRM is planning to compare with.

 

FAegon himself is just an unnecessary component. I’m glad he is in the books but it’s easy to just remove him entirely from the show plot if he truly is a fake. They could have taken up the equivalent of an entire extra season just on FAegon's arc alone.

 

Arya and the Faceless Men pretty well followed the plot the books have used so far. I get why people don’t like how it ended, and GRRM will probably end it better. But they needed an expedited ending to fit their schedules. If the Waif had simply not stabbed her so seriously before their final showdown I think it would have been fine. The big argument seems to be that she couldn’t have healed so quickly.

As I said, the books are massive because they belabor subjects that could be addressed in shorter order, not because they're chock full of new stuff.

 

Personal opinion is that removing FAegon renders Varys' and Illyrio's motivations completely bogus. I've had to explain to many people, including some here in this thread, what is going on there and why they're correct something is weird and unexplained ... because the rationale (and rationale for Dorne as well) was simply cut. FAegon ties a whole lot of shit together.

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1 hour ago, Starkiller said:

Books 4 and 5 are massive tomes. Books 1-3 were way easier to edit down into a TV season without drastic changes. I think you can easily look at what major plot points were changed from the book and (mostly) you can see that they needed to cut things from the plot to fit into the time allotted to them.

 

Dorne needed to be there because they had to kill Myrcella. But they didn’t need the rest of the plot from the book with Oldtown or Quentyn or FAegon.

 

Sansa didn’t stick around the Eyrie. Whatever plot is there for her got shifted to Winterfell because they had to off the Boltons. They were good villains and Sansa needed more screen time so it worked out putting them together. I think this worked well in the show (rape reactions aside). We have no idea what GRRM is planning to compare with.

 

FAegon himself is just an unnecessary component. I’m glad he is in the books but it’s easy to just remove him entirely from the show plot if he truly is a fake. They could have taken up the equivalent of an entire extra season just on FAegon's arc alone.

 

Arya and the Faceless Men pretty well followed the plot the books have used so far. I get why people don’t like how it ended, and GRRM will probably end it better. But they needed an expedited ending to fit their schedules. If the Waif had simply not stabbed her so seriously before their final showdown I think it would have been fine. The big argument seems to be that she couldn’t have healed so quickly.

They included Dorne because of the Red Viper.  They just miscalculated how poorly their versions of the Sand Snakes would be received.  Myrcella could have been killed in any number of ways - Dorne wasn't necessary for it.  Following the logic of "need", Dorne could have been cut out completely.

The show missed out on some great story-telling at Winterfell, in my opinion.  The "ghost of Winterfell" was a nice touch of vengeance that got eliminated by killing Mance in an earlier season.  

 

To say something is "needed" is probably not accurate.  I imagine the books won't have a summit with Cersei with a captured wight.  In that case, there won't be an A-Team collection of warriors out on a capture mission where a dragon switches sides.  That whole thing was contrived for a few story points:  1) meet with Cersei; and 2) ice dragon.  I believe the show writers wanted to skip steps to acheive #2.

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