Callahan directly lost the game

[scine09]

40 minutes ago, TerryBoats said:

I don't put those consecutive sacks on Ward at all.  Those plays got blown the fuck up due to the backup RT and rookie TE .  Ward has a split second to react to these issues, while Callahan committed premeditated murder by expecting Udoh and Helm to be able to hold their own against those guys.

 

If the coach can't even do the basic shit that the untrained eye can pick up on,  imagine how many design flaws actually exist and are negatively impacting this offense.  

The only thing Ward could've done is dirted the ball.  Which is tough to ask of a rookie QB playing in his first game ever.  He didn't have the time to get out of the pocket so throwing it away would've risked intentional grounding.

 

Ironically that's one of the things that Levis did in the Atlanta game that impressed people.

[TerryBoats]

Vrabel had one of the least penalized teams during the beginning of his tenure, and one of the most penalized towards the end of it.  I think it's because he had a team of solid vets - particularly on the OL and secondary - who were replaced by young players and bums.  I imagine there'd have to be extreme circumstances if the coach is having a significant impact on the number of penalties.

[Callidus]

1 hour ago, TerryBoats said:

I don't put those consecutive sacks on Ward at all.  Those plays got blown the fuck up due to the backup RT and rookie TE .  Ward has a split second to react to these issues, while Callahan committed premeditated murder by expecting Udoh and Helm to be able to hold their own against those guys.

 

If the coach can't even do the basic shit that the untrained eye can pick up on,  imagine how many design flaws actually exist and are negatively impacting this offense.  

Ya, the only blame that ward gets is for dropping back making the yardage loss worse.che was going to get sacked either way. For a rookie who has been able to escape that situation in the past its a common mistake when playjng with 300 pound DL who are now as fast as alot of LBs were in college  

[Mythos27]

47 minutes ago, TerryBoats said:

Vrabel had one of the least penalized teams during the beginning of his tenure, and one of the most penalized towards the end of it.  I think it's because he had a team of solid vets - particularly on the OL and secondary - who were replaced by young players and bums.  I imagine there'd have to be extreme circumstances if the coach is having a significant impact on the number of penalties.

It's because the team progressively became less talented... I've been trying to explain this for a while now. People tend to think that team are bad because they look "undisciplined" but I think it's more that teams look "undisciplined" because they're bad. 

Edited September 10 by Mythos27

[IrishTitansFan]

45 minutes ago, Mythos27 said:

I think that the way coaches influence penalty culture typically are by not being punitive enough towards offenders or not making it a point of emphasis. However, if a staff is doing both that does not necessarily guarantee that the situation gets resolved. I know that we like to think that's how it works but I just don't see that. The only sure-fire way to cut penalties in the bud is to bench or otherwise get rid of undisciplined players that either can't or don't care to improve in that regard. Unfortunately for us, some of our best players are penalty liabilities. This is Jeff Simmons' second coaching staff and he's still being an asshole. Vrabel was as focused on reducing penalties as any HC I know and still you had Jeff and Lewan being undisciplined assholes that cost the team. As with most things, it's the players. Same with false starts etc. 

I agree in a sense, but when you’re getting delay of games at an alarming rate because play calls are coming in late TWO YEARS IN A ROW!!!, maybe it’s not the players (who are different)

[TF_Titan]

5 hours ago, ctm said:

Posters:  it's the coaches

Players:  we committed too many penalties

 

There's plenty of blame to go around.

[Mythos27]

20 hours ago, TerryBoats said:

 it was the gameplan/playcalling.  Not Bill.  They were in so many obvious passing situations, with 11 of their 14 3rd downs being 3rd and 9 or longer.  Some ridiculously long.  The defense was able to just pin their ears back and throw a variety of rushes at our OL.

 

So I don't think Moore was "better" the prior year- he was just kept out of situations which would have exposed him.  Which to me, is a sign is good coaching.  And there was no reason we couldn't have done the same.  But for whatever reason, we ended up in a situation where we asked our rookie QB to attempt the longest, slowest developing pass plays in the league against the #1 pass rush instead of something far more manageable.

 

Regarding the talent issue, I don't think there's an OL in the league who have performed well while attempting to hold up nearly 3 seconds against a top pass rush who knew exactly what to expect.  While our own OL could have played much better if given a more reasonable task (like Arthur Smith did the prior year with Moore)

The reason we could not have done the same is because Moore, Latham, etc kept losing their one on one matchups or committing penalties that put us in predictable passing downs. Scheme can't hide your left tackle. You attribute way too much to coaching and too little to talent and as long as you do, things like this won't make sense to you. NFL offensive play is a feedback loop; playing badly puts you in bad situations that make you play even worse. 

[Mythos27]

17 minutes ago, IrishTitansFan said:

I agree in a sense, but when you’re getting delay of games at an alarming rate because play calls are coming in late TWO YEARS IN A ROW!!!, maybe it’s not the players (who are different)

100%. That's on the coach and he needs to address that. No question about it. I would even toss in penalties where guys are misaligned/illegal formation on the coaching staff as well if it continues to happen. It's the physical error penalties where I think people are doing too much. 

Edited September 10 by Mythos27

[ctm]

1 hour ago, Mythos27 said:

Players get it. Blaming coaches for everything is dumb shit that fans do. I encourage every die-hard fan to coach a sport at any level. It'll change your mind about how much control coaches actually have over player behavior when the competition starts. It hits different when you watch an athlete do in a game the same thing you've been drilling him not to do all week in practice. It's even worse when they showed progress all week only to backslide when it gets real. 

 

Remember the little competitive teams they formed during  training cam?  It was all designed to hold each other accountable and eliminate penalties and mistakes.  It was a major emphasis.

[TheBukafax]

3 minutes ago, Mythos27 said:

The reason we could not have done the same is because Moore, Latham, etc kept losing their one on one matchups or committing penalties that put us in predictable passing downs. Scheme can't hide your left tackle. You attribute way too much to coaching and too little to talent and as long as you do, things like this won't make sense to you. NFL offensive play is a feedback loop; playing badly puts you in bad situations that make you play even worse. 

Which could be caused by allowing the DL to perfectly time their rush. The OL gets an advantage when they know the cadence, the DL gets an advantage when they can watch the clock. Dan Moore didn’t struggle like this last year Vs the Broncos.

[Mythos27]

2 minutes ago, ctm said:

 

Remember the little competitive teams they formed during  training cam?  It was all designed to hold each other accountable and eliminate penalties and mistakes.  It was a major emphasis.

No one can accuse this staff of not doing enough to curtail penalties in the off-season and yet they were even worse than last year. If we're using logic then even if what the coaches tried was completely ineffective the team should have been at WORST equally as bad as last year but instead they were worse. To put most of this on the coaches is asinine IMO. No one coached Brownlee to interfere damn near every time he's targeted. 

[Mythos27]

13 minutes ago, TheBukafax said:

Which could be caused by allowing the DL to perfectly time their rush. The OL gets an advantage when they know the cadence, the DL gets an advantage when they can watch the clock. Dan Moore didn’t struggle like this last year Vs the Broncos.

Dan Moore has a history of struggling badly against good pass rushers. He's a gatekeeper. None of us have watched him play against the Broncos last year so none of us really know the particulars of that game. Maybe he ate his wheaties and was at his best that game last year and had a bad day this year. Maybe Sunday is the worst we'll see him play. Who knows? I've seen CBs completely shut down a receiver one year and then get destroyed by him the next. I've seen Derrick Henry shit all over the Chiefs defense in one game and then get completely shut down mere weeks later. The NFL is highly situational and outcomes can be volatile. 

Edited September 10 by Mythos27

[TheBukafax]

3 minutes ago, Mythos27 said:

Dan Moore has a history of struggling badly against good pass rushers. He's a gatekeeper. None of us have watched him play against the Broncos last year so none of us really know. Maybe he ate his wheaties and was at his best that game last year and had a bad day this year. Maybe Sunday is the worst we'll see him play. Who knows? I've seen CBs completely shut down a receiver one year and then get destroyed by him the next. I've seen Derrick Henry shit all over the Chiefs defense in one game and then get completely shut down mere weeks later. The NFL is highly situational and outcomes can be volatile. 

So you’re just hand waving away something coaching could be doing to cause the OL harm lol. Callahan is taking the advantage of knowing when the snap will be while the DL doesn’t. Getting the snap off at 1 sec left, no more advantage OL because Callahan is slow.

Edited September 10 by TheBukafax

[Mythos27]

5 minutes ago, TheBukafax said:

So you’re just hand waving away something coaching could be doing to cause the OL harm lol.

I'm not handwaving, I'm saying that I don't know what the coach is doing wrong or if he's even doing something wrong. The results on their own are not conclusive evidence of wrong-doing by the coach.The difference between us is that you think you know even though you can't articulate it and what you think you know just so happens to align with your desire to see Callahan gone. Occam's razor to me is that Dan Moore is at best a decent left tackle who was over-matched against one of the best pass rushers in the league. There is no speculation needed for that. Your stance is total speculation and not even really grounded in anything you can prove. When Lewan got completely packed up vs Chandler Jones week 1 of 2021 did everyone blame Vrabel? 

Edited September 10 by Mythos27

[Callidus]

21 minutes ago, ctm said:

 

Remember the little competitive teams they formed during  training cam?  It was all designed to hold each other accountable and eliminate penalties and mistakes.  It was a major emphasis.

Regardless of what they said it was for or its intentions, the only thing I can really see is team bonding from it. Sure you can call out other guys for doing stupid ahit but team captains should already be doing that and it only goes so far. Brownlee isnt going to stop holding people till he gets over using it at the top of routes as a crutch, you gota pull off that bandaid yourself till the impulse is gone.