IsntLifeFunny Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 20 minutes ago, BudsOilers said: Wrong. The breakout game pace (408 yards in 2 games) didn't stick. He was a tick under 4 yards a carry (mediocre) in the next 8 games (half a season). That's not elite. Did he flash the elite ability in a few games prior to mid 2019? Absolutely. Was it a consistent thing. Nope. You're arguing past him at this point. Tannehill was a top 7 QB for 2 years and then led the team to the 1 seed in a ridiculous confluence of situations. He wasn't a great QB. He was a great TN QB for a few years. Henry was not elite before Tannehill. He showed the capabilities but he was average at best weighted between big carries and his subpar performance on most runs. Both of your arguments actually align if you could stop talking past one another. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudsOilers Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 4 minutes ago, oldschool said: because it will hard to attract top talent - Fired a GM that had turned around a team (doesn't matter it was warranted, public/league perception says otherwise) - Fired a HC who won a playoff game in Mularkey - Fired Vrabel who many in league circles and the media adore (for the wrong reasons) Now throw in the following - Fire Cally after one year on a 6 year contract, who was Carthon's chouce after he gained power post Vrabel firing - Fire Carthon after 2 years No offense but this fire Cally shit is casual fan levels of stupid. the team has no QB and is bad. If you want to continue to be bad, advocate for firing a 1st year HC before they get a shot to truly enact change. Cally and Carthon need at least one more year, prolly 2 to truly see if they can turn this ship around. Where do you get the idea that Carthon hired Callahan. He reports to him but in no way did they just let Carthon do the hire. AAS, Nihill, Brinker were all in the group too. That all said, Callahan has to show some promise here to earn the opportunity. From my years of watching the NFL, he's going step by step in how to get fired in a year. Horrible mistakes repeatedly made. Weak coordinators who constantly say stupid things publicly. The only decent coordinator is the one Carthon hired. If they go 1-16 or 2-15, it could happen. Yes it would suck and the team would look stupid but keeping someone in over his head is just as bad. The worst thing they could do is keep rolling with Callahan solely out of optics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TF_Titan Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 2 hours ago, IsntLifeFunny said: On the off-chance he does then it means Carthon is going with him. He would have to...and I don't think Amy is ready to do that after just promoting him. IsntLifeFunny 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TF_Titan Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 2 hours ago, rns90 said: Other teams have made hires like this and cut bait after one year. It happens. Sure...on poorly run teams. Teams with a revolving door at HC are pretty much always perennially bad (Carolina, Jacksonville, etc.) The reality is we won't know if he's truly a bad hire until we know if he can learn from his mistakes. If you're not willing to allow a first time head coach to learn on the job then don't hire a first time head coach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudsOilers Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 1 hour ago, Pragidealist said: First - Quick question. Do any of you manage departments, experts , complicated processes and projects? Do any of you have any experience on what any of that entails? I do. Running these things like that takes talent with ppl, experience around so many things like how and when to use data analysis, how and when to drill in to a recommendation or call out a bad analysis in a way that's productive. So many things. Second- in my experience in life 90% of success is in the implementation of the idea- not the idea itself. It is so freaking rare for the idea (a particular play at a particular moment) to matter more than the quality of the implementation. THAT is how manning and brady were so successful. Not cute play calling. (which don't get me wrong, can give you an edge in tight games against equal opposition). Play calling is cute. It looks cool when they get one right and the other team is flat but the real difference in quality teams is the execution of whatever play they call. When they go through a process and set up a set of plays for goal line, 4rth and 1, 3rd and 10- whatever..... I don't really give a damn which play of the set of plays they call. If the execute it well, 99% of the time, its going to work. So yes. I think you guys are vastly over rating playcalling vs all the other things it takes to manage a complicated organization. They pay these guys millions of dollars for their ability to manage a very unique and niche department and a very select industry. Those skills are already worth 6 figure salaries in industries with deep application pools. Those individuals with those management skills, with the experience in that very tight, narrow industry and with any track record of success is very, very rare. There are almost no applicants that are proven and qualified. Its what makes them valuable. They don't pay them millions of dollars for picking the right play off a prepared sheet. Its ridiculous and shows a very shallow, madden esque understanding of what is going on out there. It also shows no real comprehension on the basics of how the job market and careers work. And beyond sharing that thought.. I don't really feel like arguing that point. Bc if you know you know and if you don't.. *shrugs* We are certainly impressed by your immense management experience. From someone who's whole career has been managing people, departments, projects, and companies, I can safely say it has no relevance to the argument you are trying to make here. The main flaw in your analysis is based on an apparent lack of understanding of how NFL coaching staffs work, especially when the dynamic of a play calling head coach is involved and simply the dismissive view of what a play call actually is a culmination of. Do you honestly believe that the play calling head coach isn't intimately involved in all of the facets of the unit - play design, putting the game plan and script together for the game and situationally, personnel groupings, practice plans including play calling and executing those plays over and over, etc. ??? You think Andy Reid, McVay, or Shanahan are simply reading a play sheet on game day without all of that? Their coordinators absolutely have a role along with the position coaches and quality control coaches but to pretend that a play calling coordinator and non-play calling coordinator are equal is laughable. The play calling HC is the defacto OC or DC in reality. On top of the normal HC duties, which they also have help on during game day (TO's, challenges, etc.). The reality with Callahan is that he always has had a thin resume - largely aided by nepo ties because of his dad - where he finally got an non play calling OC job under his daddy's former college QB mind you and was there for 5 years - and now he's doing it for the first time and his right hand man is no other than his HS BFF who's coaching career started with daddy and is largely linked with the Taylor's or other Callahan tied people. While it's not that surprising they are struggling because it's new, the results are so bad that they could get themselves fired. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudsOilers Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 4 minutes ago, TF_Titan said: Sure...on poorly run teams. Teams with a revolving door at HC are pretty much always perennially bad (Carolina, Jacksonville, etc.) The reality is we won't know if he's truly a bad hire until we know if he can learn from his mistakes. If you're not willing to allow a first time head coach to learn on the job then don't hire a first time head coach. Much like with QB though, there's a line where it's not getting better and it won't get better. It's not like he hasn't made the same mistakes twice and the defense of the ST coach in itself is worrisome and then you hear Anderson and Holz double down on stuff and it's only worse. He's likeable but at some point words just become noise without results. This has a chance to get a lot uglier if they don't show some level of improvement. God help them if they get boat raced by NE at home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 29 minutes ago, BudsOilers said: Where do you get the idea that Carthon hired Callahan. He reports to him but in no way did they just let Carthon do the hire. AAS, Nihill, Brinker were all in the group too. That all said, Callahan has to show some promise here to earn the opportunity. From my years of watching the NFL, he's going step by step in how to get fired in a year. Horrible mistakes repeatedly made. Weak coordinators who constantly say stupid things publicly. The only decent coordinator is the one Carthon hired. If they go 1-16 or 2-15, it could happen. Yes it would suck and the team would look stupid but keeping someone in over his head is just as bad. The worst thing they could do is keep rolling with Callahan solely out of optics. It was widely reported Carthon and Cally fell in love so to speak. While hiring the HC coach was obviously an org decision, its obvious Carthon was the main driver behind it and lets not forget, oversight of the staff is his, not Brinkers.... As for the other stuff, I agree Cally isn't doing himself any favors but firing any coach after one year is a bad mistake unless they've completely lost the locker room like a McDaniels. When you hire a 1st time HC growing pains are expected. They've just been way worse than any of us imagined. I'll be the first to say I'm concerned by what I've seen through 7 games. TF_Titan, and AvgJoe 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudsOilers Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 22 minutes ago, oldschool said: It was widely reported Carthon and Cally fell in love so to speak. While hiring the HC coach was obviously an org decision, its obvious Carthon was the main driver behind it and lets not forget, oversight of the staff is his, not Brinkers.... As for the other stuff, I agree Cally isn't doing himself any favors but firing any coach after one year is a bad mistake unless they've completely lost the locker room like a McDaniels. When you hire a 1st time HC growing pains are expected. They've just been way worse than any of us imagined. I'll be the first to say I'm concerned by what I've seen through 7 games. If it was mainly Carthon pushing for this, yeah then they might both get fired. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctm Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 (edited) deleted Edited October 31 by ctm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 Just now, ctm said: RFK jr. is an anti-vax clown even his own family won't support. Tulsi Gabbard has tried her best to undermine Ukraine. And that is the best possible light to put on her opinion. If there was any mistake in the VP selection, it was Trump not picking Nikki Haley or at least making peace with her and getting her to campaign with him. Sir this is a Wendy's BudsOilers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragidealist Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 30 minutes ago, BudsOilers said: We are certainly impressed by your immense management experience. From someone who's whole career has been managing people, departments, projects, and companies, I can safely say it has no relevance to the argument you are trying to make here. The main flaw in your analysis is based on an apparent lack of understanding of how NFL coaching staffs work, especially when the dynamic of a play calling head coach is involved and simply the dismissive view of what a play call actually is a culmination of. Do you honestly believe that the play calling head coach isn't intimately involved in all of the facets of the unit - play design, putting the game plan and script together for the game and situationally, personnel groupings, practice plans including play calling and executing those plays over and over, etc. ??? You think Andy Reid, McVay, or Shanahan are simply reading a play sheet on game day without all of that? Their coordinators absolutely have a role along with the position coaches and quality control coaches but to pretend that a play calling coordinator and non-play calling coordinator are equal is laughable. The play calling HC is the defacto OC or DC in reality. On top of the normal HC duties, which they also have help on during game day (TO's, challenges, etc.). The reality with Callahan is that he always has had a thin resume - largely aided by nepo ties because of his dad - where he finally got an non play calling OC job under his daddy's former college QB mind you and was there for 5 years - and now he's doing it for the first time and his right hand man is no other than his HS BFF who's coaching career started with daddy and is largely linked with the Taylor's or other Callahan tied people. While it's not that surprising they are struggling because it's new, the results are so bad that they could get themselves fired. I started to go line by line here but the short version is none of what you're saying makes sense. If you have actually led orgs of any decent size you should realize this easily. Particularly if you have led experts and analysts High level leadership is a collaborative and synthesizing process. The head coach can't logistically be in all of these or he would be a bottle neck to getting anything done. Producing game plans is a process by a team of experts, supervised by OCs/DCs. Its not that hard man. Just think of the logistics. That's not saying head coaches are not involved and I am sure that involvement varies by coach but no coach is successful by how well he micro manages. Thats not how the real world works beyond small business and small teams. The skills and difficulty in finding good ones for that are why VPs, COOs, CIOs, get paid 6 figures. The more rare the skillset and proven expertise, the higher the salary. That's the way the market work. Playcalling can be important but its sensationalized. Leading a team and guys to execute something to perfection is the real test. The playcalling is the icing on top. There is no coach in history that wins playoff games with great playcalling and poor execution. Many men have won lots of things with vanilla schemes and fantastic execution. Execution is the test of a leader and its ultimately execution that produces results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctm Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 (edited) 2 minutes ago, oldschool said: Sir this is a Wendy's wrong thread and deleted. Do the same Edited October 31 by ctm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 2 minutes ago, ctm said: wrong thread and deleted. Do the same Relax just busting your balls. We've all done that too many times to count. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctm Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 (edited) 21 minutes ago, oldschool said: Relax just busting your balls. We've all done that too many times to count. Just trying to respect the board rules. Keep it in the correct forum. Don't cross over. Edited October 31 by ctm oldschool 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragidealist Posted October 31 Report Share Posted October 31 1 minute ago, ctm said: Just trying to respect the board rules Wait.. there are board rules? When did that happen? OILERMAN 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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