Jacksonville Jaguars week

[Mythos27]

28 minutes ago, titanruss said:

 

It's hard to know anything concrete about what they want to do on Offense, if they want to modernize more, because of how bad the talent is.

Right. Which is why I default to what they tried to do early in the year before they realized how bad they were and started coaching to plug holes. 

[IowaOiler]

1 minute ago, Mythos27 said:

These are good points. Where I get stuck is determining whether the players are failing to develop because they suck or because the staff sucks at developing them. A few case studies here;

 

Chig and Burks looked like potential success stories and then they started to regress. Does the staff deserve credit for making them look like breakout candidates or blame for the regression? Seems mutually exclusive to me. At first everyone praised the coaching staff for getting Levis ready to play and for him playing much better than we even saw at Kentucky, now it seems we're revoking that credit because the OL can't keep him upright. Gibby is not a great player at all but I think the staff deserves credit for turning him into even a starting caliber LB in just one year. Teiar Tart is an undrafted nobody, I think they get credit for developing him. McCreary has played very well save for the 2nd half vs the Buccs. Here's another little nugget: did you know that Chris Hubbard is having the 2nd best season of his 10 year career and best since 2020? To what do we attribute that? I'm not saying they're amazing talent developers, but I am suggesting that the issue isn't as black and white as it gets presented. Bad players, who will go on to be bad players, DON'T ever develop. It's why they suck forever. Holding coaches responsible for such players seems unreasonable. 

 

All I know about the NFL and really sports at the highest level, is that coaches either carried by their talent or buried by it. Belichick didn't forget how to coach; being a bad GM just finally caught to him in addition to losing Brady. We know Vrabel can coach. We have years of evidence he can. Not too long ago we were all lauding his ability to lead us to wins we had no business getting. We also know this roster is ass and have no evidence that better coaching would fix anything. Occam's razor tells me the problem is talent and rather than lose a good coach because he's not managing bad talent optimally, it's much smarter to demand that the GM do his job and give the good coach acceptable talent.  

 

Well, I guess you're on the holdouts list.

 

The claim we have evidence he's a good coach....what evidence?  The #1 seed that we then went one-and-done after when meathead ran Henry 20 times for fewer yards than Hillard got on 4 carries?  The 2-3 playoff record?  Winning the worst division in football a few times?  COY?  There isn't evidence he's a good coach, and it's especially damning using your talent metric, since the accolades just listed were with a shit-ton of talent on both sides of the ball.  He had a top 10 receiver, top 10 QB, and the best RB and at best got Jeff Fisher results...that's not evidence he's a good coach.

 

I don't disagree that the talent isn't great, but players have regressed almost universally, and throw in the constant injury issues we've seen during his tenure, and I don't think you can say it's unrelated.  His entire staff would be lucky to be employed in the NFL in any capacity outside of TN.  You trying to claim the staff should get credit for Burks and Chig looking good their rookie year makes little sense given the minimal time they had with them before the season.  Compared to their first NFL off-season when they had far more time, and have looked like CFL-caliber bums afterward.  

 

I won't say it's black/white, but the entire franchise is in total disarray, and he's been at the helm throughout.  If you think he's going to go to Dallas and suddenly become a great coach again, you're delusional.  That offensive talent on the Cowboys would be wasted under a meathead lead offense...which is why I really want him to go there.  

[IowaOiler]

8 minutes ago, Mythos27 said:

Right. Which is why I default to what they tried to do early in the year before they realized how bad they were and started coaching to plug holes. 

 

Dude....look who you're agreeing with.  That should tell you everything you need to know.

[Mythos27]

53 minutes ago, oldschool said:

 

you realize Dullard wasn't benched Sunday right? He was in concussion protocol. 

You're right. But again, what impact did Dillard being out even have? We still had our second worst game of the season and can't even blame his dumb ass this time. What I'm saying is that now that we know that pretty much all the options are horrible (jury is out on Sko to LT) I find it more understandable how Vrabel could look at Radunz, Duncan, etc and decide to just keep rolling with the scrub he knows best and likes for unknown reasons. Like should he start the tackle with a D- grade over the one with the F grade? Yes. Am I going to get worked up over it? Not really. I know we can talk about Sko playing tackle but as far as he AND probably Carthon are concerned he's a guard and not even in the discussion. 

[Mythos27]

39 minutes ago, Yoshimitsu said:

On offense, you can definitely make that case.  Defense though…there is plenty of talent there for them to be playing at a higher level.  The defense has always been putrid unless a talented coordinator is overseeing it, and Vrabel isn’t that guy.  

Yeah. I have nothing to say on defense. That's on coaching as much as anything else.

[oldschool]

1 minute ago, Mythos27 said:

You're right. But again, what impact did Dillard being out even have? We still had our second worst game of the season and can't even blame his dumb ass this time. What I'm saying is that now that we know that pretty much all the options are horrible (jury is out on Sko to LT) I find it more understandable how Vrabel could look at Radunz, Duncan, etc and decide to just keep rolling with the scrub he knows best and likes for unknown reasons. Like should he start the tackle with a D- grade over the one with the F grade? Yes. Am I going to get worked up over it? Not really. I know we can talk about Sko playing tackle but as far as he AND probably Carthon are concerned he's a guard and not even in the discussion. 

 

LT wasnt the only issue on Sunday. Skoronski was bad and the rest of the OL was as well. It was a complete ass whooping.

[Titans279]

I’ve had gripes with Vrabel going back to his initial hire… but it seems that a lot of people are simply going all in on blaming Vrabel (even though I agree with all the criticisms) because they wrongly predicted that this team as currently constructed was a contender and need something to blame. 
 

Is the roster bad or not?
 

They fired the GM for building a shit roster and they didn’t fix everything in one offseason… I’m not sure AAS will fire the HC one year later. 
 

We don’t know what their conversations were behind closed doors but the main reason I think Vrabel’s exit could be soon is if they sold the team as contenders. Then Vrabel’s not looking so hot. 
 

I would actually be glad to move on and hire an offensive minded guy but let’s not forget that hiring head coaches probably has a higher failure rate than drafting QBs 1 or 2 overall. Look how many of the top candidates from each year flame out. 
 

Vrabels time looks up to me, but I don’t think AAS will sour on him as fast as us. She hired him, she extended him… she likes him more than we ever did. 

[Mythos27]

35 minutes ago, BudsOilers said:

You're way too easy on Vrabel.  One - he hasn't been an innocent victim in personnel moves under either GM, he's done an awful job developing coaching talent and developing young players, and he's got the whole self inflicted pass pro, conflicted down things....Secondly, he fucked it up even when he had the talent.

 

 

I don't think he's innocent. Far from it. He's made his share of mistakes and yes, his fingerprints are all over the personnel moves. That shit needs to end and they need to put him back into a role where he just coaches. Let the GM make acquire the talent. The conflicted down stuff was certainly a years long fuck up by him. No doubt about it. But at least to me, it looks like he's trying to change course and being prevented from doing it. This OL is the equivalent of offering booze to a recovering alcoholic. 

[Mythos27]

13 minutes ago, IowaOiler said:

 

Dude....look who you're agreeing with.  That should tell you everything you need to know.

Listen, I've agreed and disagreed with everyone on this board at least once or twice lol. I could very well be wrong on this whole thing but this is just how I'm seeing it. Here's what I'm sure we will agree on though; regardless of whose "fault" it is, if this continues he's gone and I'll understand. It's gonna feel like J-Rob where I'll be conflicted but the firing will be justified and I'll make my peace with it. 

Edited November 14 by Mythos27

[Mythos27]

12 minutes ago, oldschool said:

 

LT wasnt the only issue on Sunday. Skoronski was bad and the rest of the OL was as well. It was a complete ass whooping.

I understand this. I pointed it out because our discussion was centering around the decisions made at LT. My point is that even when different decision are made or different players are starting, the results are similar. Radunz didn't look worse than Dillard but he also didn't look like someone that you would choose to start if you had a choice. Conversely, he's looked serviceable at guard. I understand Vrabel's decision-making at least on that a bit more now. I'd still prefer Radunz and will disagree with Vrabel when he inevitably trots him back out there but I get why he didn't want to try him there now. Stick with the devil you know and all that. 

Edited November 14 by Mythos27

[oldschool]

33 minutes ago, Mythos27 said:

I understand this. I pointed it out because our discussion was centering around the decisions made at LT. My point is that even when different decision are made or different players are starting, the results are similar. Radunz didn't look worse than Dillard but he also didn't look like someone that you would choose to start if you had a choice. Conversely, he's looked serviceable at guard. I understand Vrabel's decision-making at least on that a bit more now. I'd still prefer Radunz and will disagree with Vrabel when he inevitably trots him back out there but I get why he didn't want to try him there now. Stick with the devil you know and all that. 

 

I've seen Radunz play fine and I stress fine not good, outside. Too many focus on the pressures but don't consider the context. 3rd and long in obvious passing situations, etc... I'm with @Downtown give Radunz a week of practice at LT and then see how he does over a few games. I doubt it will be as bad as Dullard or NPF but we won't know until they try something different. 

Edited November 14 by oldschool

[TF_Titan]

1 hour ago, rns90 said:

Look at now, the talent level has diminished and he’s had to develop OL and failed horribly.

 

I don't expect Vrabel to have a clue how to develop OLinemen. But I do expect him to know how to identify the right assistant coaches that can. If he can't do that then he's simply not fit to be a head coach. All the "rah-rah" stuff is great. But it's useless if you don't know how to construct a qualified staff and/or allow them to do their jobs.

Edited November 14 by TF_Titan

[SleepingTitan]

6 minutes ago, Titans279 said:

I’ve had gripes with Vrabel going back to his initial hire… but it seems that a lot of people are simply going all in on blaming Vrabel (even though I agree with all the criticisms) because they wrongly predicted that this team as currently constructed was a contender and need something to blame. 
 

Is the roster bad or not?
 

They fired the GM for building a shit roster and they didn’t fix everything in one offseason… I’m not sure AAS will fire the HC one year later. 
 

We don’t know what their conversations were behind closed doors but the main reason I think Vrabel’s exit could be soon is if they sold the team as contenders. Then Vrabel’s not looking so hot. 
 

I would actually be glad to move on and hire an offensive minded guy but let’s not forget that hiring head coaches probably has a higher failure rate than drafting QBs 1 or 2 overall. Look how many of the top candidates from each year flame out. 
 

Vrabels time looks up to me, but I don’t think AAS will sour on him as fast as us. She hired him, she extended him… she likes him more than we ever did. 

She's gonna say what she said after she fired Whiz: protect my new QB. 

 

That's what we did with the new regime, and JRob's dumbass couldn't keep it together.

 

1st mistake: no 5th year on Conklin (and not drafting Tunsil and not trading up). 

2nd: Davis walked

3rd: Isaiah Wilson / Radunz

4th: Did not draft replacement for Ben Jones / Brew is great depth but not a starter

5th: No replacement for Lewan / Dilliard

6th: Used a bluechip pick to replace Saffold

 

10 picks on Oline, 8 of which are 3rd or better. It would be even funnier if we looked back to Lewan days at all those wasted picks like Popussi and those raw "maulers" who never amounted to jackshit. 

 

Lewan was a bad pick too tbh. Only got 105 games out of him. <12 gms per year. He had 4 seasons with 15+ gms played.  

 

That's just the Oline. Think about this: Cole McDonald instead of a kicker? Was that a troll??? So no, I'm not ready to can the coach. They're hard af to find. If you're seeing how McDermott and Daboll are absolutely shitting the bed, McFleur ain't shit without Rodgers, you'll see that the grass isn't greener. 

[Mythos27]

2 minutes ago, oldschool said:

 

I've seen Radunz play fine and I stress fine not good, outside. Too many focus on the pressures but don't consider the context. 3rd and long in obvious passing situations, etc... I'm with @Downtown give Radunz of practive at LT and then see how he does over a few games. I doubt it will be as bad as Dullard or NPF but we won't know until they try something different. 

I agree with most of this. His handling of the LT position is one of the biggest strikes against Vrabel. I think Vrabel is handling a horrible situation poorly but I've seen him do much better than what I'm seeing this season. Ran is gonna have to be our hero here. It's up to him to tell Vrabel to shut the fuck up and let him bring in the OL that will save his job. 

[oldschool]

1 minute ago, Mythos27 said:

I agree with most of this. His handling of the LT position is one of the biggest strikes against Vrabel. I think Vrabel is handling a horrible situation poorly but I've seen him do much better than what I'm seeing this season. Ran is gonna have to be our hero here. It's up to him to tell Vrabel to shut the fuck up and let him bring in the OL that will save his job. 

 

I honestly believe his issue with Radunz is that he's not a good run blocker.