Starkiller Posted October 27, 2023 Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 2 hours ago, tgo said: An alternative take: I’m not sure I agree that it is this cut and dry by any means, but in response to your point - How can one say “the State of Israel should not exist” and not be anti-semitic by definition? I’m confused by that notion. I think underlying ill will toward Jews is implicit in that line of reasoning. Jews very clearly have the purest non biblical historical claim over much of that plot of land - it is in fact the homeland of their ancestors predating the Arab incursion into the territory. It was rightfully restored to them by force as part of the new post-WWII world order. To me, it's very akin to the Russians saying that the State of Ukraine should not exist, or doesn't exist when in fact the Kyivian Rus were the predecessor conquerors of the Steppe lands to the imperial Muscovite faction. Regardless, where a Democracy can be forged out of an autocracy - that is by default always the morally superior state of human governance in my mind. I believe ideally Kurds should have their own state too though btw, as well as Palestinians in the West Bank governed by their own Democratic Authority so that Jerusalem can be “shared” by both faiths. To be clear, plenty of Zionists want to equate being anti-Zionist with being antisemitic because people don’t want to seen as being antisemitic. Liberal America especially doesn’t like Israeli treatment of Palestinians and yet doesn’t want to be tagged as antisemitic, so conservatives love equating the 2. Which is kinda funny as they end up labeling a lot of American Jews as antisemitic that way. Again, plenty of people who are anti-Zionist with being antisemitic. But it isn’t strictly the same thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgo Posted October 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 1 hour ago, Starkiller said: To be clear, plenty of Zionists want to equate being anti-Zionist with being antisemitic because people don’t want to seen as being antisemitic. Liberal America especially doesn’t like Israeli treatment of Palestinians and yet doesn’t want to be tagged as antisemitic, so conservatives love equating the 2. Which is kinda funny as they end up labeling a lot of American Jews as antisemitic that way. Again, plenty of people who are anti-Zionist with being antisemitic. But it isn’t strictly the same thing. What is your definition of Zionism, personally? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgo Posted October 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, IrishTitansFan said: I completely disagree with that. Religion doesn't even have to come into the equation when discussing Israel's history. Although I agree the Jewish people deserve somewhere free from the persecution they faced in Europe, it's not anti-semitic to say that Palestinians were woefully mistreated in establishing that state. People who say Israel shouldn't exist at all maybe go too far, but it isn't much different to saying Palestine shouldn't exist on the other side. the answer is establishing Palestine as a state based on pre 1967 borders, removing all Israeli settlements in the West Bank, completely freeing Gaza of all blockades and barriers and shutting down Hamas' military wing, restoring a Palestinian legislative body and finally letting the people vote out Hamas and any party which have violent ambitions. Sure it won't resolve all the issues for quite some time, but I think that's how you go about building peace in the region long-term It's also very very generous to call Israel in it's current form a democracy. They have one check against complete government authoritarian control - the supreme court - and the government are attempting to gain control over that too. Netanyahu is doing everything he can to establish a dictatorship Maniacal far right wing like Putin and Netanyahu must be stopped, and the people they reside over and that their military oppress must be freed. It's the biggest threat to peace I agree re: Netanyahu and I also agree that Israel should not have settlements in the West Bank. I think ultimately Gaza should be ruled by an international coalition government of some sort, with Arab states involved. Edited October 27, 2023 by tgo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted October 27, 2023 Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) 27 minutes ago, tgo said: What is your definition of Zionism, personally? Zionism is pretty well defined already. It’s a support for a Jewish state of Israel. Offhand it seems pretty innocuous. But when you figure in that it involves pushing the Palestinians off of their land in the process and (in modern incarnations) treating the Palestinians living in occupied territories as second class citizens (or worse), it takes a bit of a turn. Edited October 27, 2023 by Starkiller IsntLifeFunny 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgo Posted October 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 1 minute ago, Starkiller said: Zionism is pretty well defined already. It’s a support for a Jewish state of Israel. Offhand it seems pretty innocuous. But when you figure in that it involves pushing the Palestinians off of their land in the process and (in modern incarnations) treating the Palestinians living in occupied territories as second class citizens, it takes a bit of a turn. The boat has already long since sailed on a debate about the viability of a Jewish State of Israel, so much so that the idea of removing it now sounds borderline genocidal to many. I do think Palestinians in Israel deserve better, and I think they should have unequivocal statehood in the West Bank ultimately, preferably without the malign influence of Iran. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted October 27, 2023 Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 4 hours ago, tgo said: It doesn’t seem to be being reported on yet by mainstream media sources from what I’m seeing other than cursory mentions on tv programs - which makes some sense because progressives just don’t seem to want to hear it. The NYT instead are pushing opinion pieces blaming Jews for “spewing anti Palestinian hate” and Friedman’s recent piece basically blaming “Zionism”and Netanyahu for the terror perpetrated by Hamas (not gonna link the articles). The biases seem overtly clear to me and I hate that domestically the left (my side) is ceding the moral high ground on this topic to the right wing. Musk’s platform has been accused in recent days of pushing anti semitic content though, which is also readily apparent. There are serious issues that I've never personally experienced but which are very much worthy of discussion and highlighting. A riser in antisemitism is one. I'm not trying to minimize the issue, I'm just wondering if you've also seen it first hand. I'm gathering that you haven't? No less an issue overall if you haven't but I do think I'd be more troubled if you had. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgo Posted October 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Jamalisms said: There are serious issues that I've never personally experienced but which are very much worthy of discussion and highlighting. A riser in antisemitism is one. I'm not trying to minimize the issue, I'm just wondering if you've also seen it first hand. I'm gathering that you haven't? No less an issue overall if you haven't but I do think I'd be more troubled if you had. Well I'm not Jewish personally, but I have friends and family that are. One couple I spoke with this week just moved from San Diego, California very recently because they couldn't handle the issues in their neighborhood anymore. The one that put them over the edge was someone draping a large Nazi flag over the bridge right near their house. To be honest, this anecdote is why I made this thread after what I had been seeing online in recent days as well including Jews having their homes marked in Berlin. I'm not saying this is a totally widespread out of control issue yet in the United States (outside of some college campuses), but it very easily could become that if we are not diligent. Edited October 27, 2023 by tgo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted October 27, 2023 Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 4 minutes ago, tgo said: One couple I spoke with this week just moved from San Diego, California very recently because they couldn't handle the issues in their neighborhood anymore. The one that put them over the edge was someone draping a large Nazi flag over the bridge right near their house. Welcome to Indiana? tgo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted October 27, 2023 Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 Antisemitism has been on the rise in America for years now. It inevitably flares up more noticeably when there is violence between Israel and Palestinians, but it’s nothing new. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgo Posted October 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, Jamalisms said: Welcome to Indiana? Lol - Nebraska, but where I live in particular is a lot more diverse and less conservative than one would imagine. Edited October 27, 2023 by tgo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsntLifeFunny Posted October 27, 2023 Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, IrishTitansFan said: I completely disagree with that. Religion doesn't even have to come into the equation when discussing Israel's history. Although I agree the Jewish people deserve somewhere free from the persecution they faced in Europe, it's not anti-semitic to say that Palestinians were woefully mistreated in establishing that state. People who say Israel shouldn't exist at all maybe go too far, but it isn't much different to saying Palestine shouldn't exist on the other side. the answer is establishing Palestine as a state based on pre 1967 borders, removing all Israeli settlements in the West Bank, completely freeing Gaza of all blockades and barriers and shutting down Hamas' military wing, restoring a Palestinian legislative body and finally letting the people vote out Hamas and any party which have violent ambitions. Sure it won't resolve all the issues for quite some time, but I think that's how you go about building peace in the region long-term It's also very very generous to call Israel in it's current form a democracy. They have one check against complete government authoritarian control - the supreme court - and the government are attempting to gain control over that too. Netanyahu is doing everything he can to establish a dictatorship Maniacal far right wing like Putin and Netanyahu must be stopped, and the people they reside over and that their military oppress must be freed. It's the biggest threat to peace I don't agree with the article either, but there is absolutely zero chance Israel would ever agree to pre-1967 borders. They were attacked in an asymmetrical war and pushed their boundaries out by blood. They'll never give that land back. I agree about the settlements in the West Bank and how Gaza needs to not only be trested humanly but also practically in terms of open elections. As for Netenyahu, the man is an aspiring dictator, and you're correct to note the Far Rights attempt at removing the Supreme Court from being able to oversee them. Edited October 27, 2023 by IsntLifeFunny Starkiller, and tgo 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsntLifeFunny Posted October 27, 2023 Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 2 hours ago, Starkiller said: Antisemitism has been on the rise in America for years now. It inevitably flares up more noticeably when there is violence between Israel and Palestinians, but it’s nothing new. At times the neo nazis and Muslims make strange bedfellows. tgo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted October 27, 2023 Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 3 hours ago, IsntLifeFunny said: At times the neo nazis and Muslims make strange bedfellows. They hate each other, but they also share a common hatred for Jews… IsntLifeFunny 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted October 27, 2023 Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 3 hours ago, IsntLifeFunny said: I don't agree with the article either, but there is absolutely zero chance Israel would ever agree to pre-1967 borders. They were attacked in an asymmetrical war and pushed their boundaries out by blood. They'll never give that land back. I agree about the settlements in the West Bank and how Gaza needs to not only be trested humanly but also practically in terms of open elections. As for Netenyahu, the man is an aspiring dictator, and you're correct to note the Far Rights attempt at removing the Supreme Court from being able to oversee them. Israel has tried to trade land for peace. That was the central part of the Clinton era peace deal between Israel and the PLO. It fell apart largely over Jerusalem but they were willing to give up some of the land they had won in order to create a Palestinian state. But at this point I don’t see any negotiating going anywhere. The Israelis could easily be willing to give up land, but I don’t think they could ever trust the Palestinians to hold up their end of the bargain in terms of peace. IsntLifeFunny 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsntLifeFunny Posted October 27, 2023 Report Share Posted October 27, 2023 16 minutes ago, Starkiller said: Israel has tried to trade land for peace. That was the central part of the Clinton era peace deal between Israel and the PLO. It fell apart largely over Jerusalem but they were willing to give up some of the land they had won in order to create a Palestinian state. But at this point I don’t see any negotiating going anywhere. The Israelis could easily be willing to give up land, but I don’t think they could ever trust the Palestinians to hold up their end of the bargain in terms of peace. The same holds true on the other side of that equation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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