oldschool Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 1 minute ago, WG53 said: Compromise? LOL Aka progressives giving in as they are always expected to. This cycle never ends. What is your answer? Do you have a realistic take or just some fairy tale where progressives take a stand and somehow gain power? luvyablue256 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvyablue256 Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, oldschool said: What is your answer? Do you have a realistic take or just some fairy tale where progressives take a stand and somehow gain power? He's not changing his mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvyablue256 Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 https://www.pbs.org/video/engine-democracy-wgpmdr/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvyablue256 Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 13 minutes ago, WG53 said: Yeah keep lying to yourself. Sure, you are a progressive all right. A real progressive wouldn't try to "punish" the only party with progressives just because they didn't pass perfect bills. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG53 Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 7 minutes ago, oldschool said: What is your answer? Do you have a realistic take or just some fairy tale where progressives take a stand and somehow gain power? A realistic take? Everything I said is realistic as it is factual. You guys want progressives to give in to moderates at every turn. And then blame them when things go wrong. You want complete compliance while never compromising while saying they should compromise. if you want realistic then how about actually compromising with progressives for a change or giving them something that they've had on the agenda for years and is popular but gets torpedoed by moderates at every turn. 1 minute ago, luvyablue256 said: He's not changing his mind. it's not like any of you have ever said anything that would make anyone change their minds. All you ever do is blame progressives for shit that moderates do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG53 Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, luvyablue256 said: A real progressive wouldn't try to "punish" the only party with progressives just because they didn't pass perfect bills. That is just nonsense. luvyablue256 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 1 minute ago, WG53 said: A realistic take? Everything I said is realistic as it is factual. You guys want progressives to give in to moderates at every turn. And then blame them when things go wrong. You want complete compliance while never compromising while saying they should compromise. if you want realistic then how about actually compromising with progressives for a change or giving them something that they've had on the agenda for years and is popular but gets torpedoed by moderates at every turn. it's not like any of you have ever said anything that would make anyone change their minds. All you ever do is blame progressives for shit that moderates do. Stop ranting and provide an opinion on a path forward. Spell it out. reo, and luvyablue256 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvyablue256 Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 Its almost like the BIF was nothing but a GOP wish list with zero progressive priorities. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitansPDO Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 (edited) Progressives were told by party leadership that the reconciliation bill would make up for the lacking infrastructure bill in order to secure their votes for it. However, yet again, the centrists/conservative members of the democrats say fuck that after they get Progressives on board to pass the infrastructure bill. The reconciliation bill started at 6T in committee, then went down to 3.5T. That's already a sign of compromise, but conservative/centrists are greedy and now want it at 1T to 1.5T, likely gutting all of the climate provisions, a good chunk of the medical provisions, and likely greatly reducing the applicability of that popular child credit (we still don't really know what Manchin/Sienma wants to cut to be honest so I'm just guessing). Progressives say 3.5T is as low as they want to go, conservative/centrists want it to only be as high as 1T to 1.5T. Compromise is finding something in the middle, not telling progressive to take another one for the team and accept what a conservative dem wants. This whole episode is another in a long line of instances where the conservative Senate democrat holds the party hostage to get what they want, and they will likely succeed (think Obamacare and Joe Lieberman). That's not compromise at all and the Progressives do have a legitimate complaint. Oldschool is right about Manchin. Progressive hate him, but they need to get more of their own to win in Senate races to nullify him. They have had some success in House races (normally safe democratic seats where they oust a moderate dem). Maybe that strategy could be applicable. It's either that or go third party. To which I say good luck. You want to see where Democrats and Republicans 100% agree, it's in lawsuits to keep third parties off the ballot. As I wrote earlier, I hope the stupid saber rattling ends soon and they actually compromise so that everyone gets something of what they want in these bills. I doubt it happens at this point. Even if the bill passes, it may end up being a pyrrhic victory. Yet again, Democrats on the brink of fumbling the ball. Edited September 20, 2021 by TItansPDO oldschool, WG53, OILERMAN, and 1 other 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reo Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 Progressives always think they have more control than they actually have. The GOP is a far right party. That means moderates are democrats. That doesn't mean they're progressives. Sure, a majority might support progressive ideas but that's easily misunderstood. That doesn't mean the majority of states support it or senators. When Republicans gain control, they can pass far right policies b/c they're in large part a far right party (the majority of which don't actually care about policy). When Dems gain control, they're not a progressive party. They're in control b/c the moderates joined them against the far right. That means they can't pass purely progressive policy. The sooner progressives understand that, the better. oldschool, and luvyablue256 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 10 minutes ago, TItansPDO said: Progressives were told by party leadership that the reconciliation bill would make up for the lacking infrastructure bill in order to secure their votes for it. However, yet again, the centrists/conservative members of the democrats say fuck that after they get Progressives on board to pass the infrastructure bill. The reconciliation bill started at 6T in committee, then went down to 3.5T. That's already a sign of compromise, but conservative/centrists are greedy and now want it at 1T to 1.5T, likely gutting all of the climate provisions, a good chunk of the medical provisions, and likely greatly reducing the applicability of that popular child credit (we still don't really know what Manchin/Sienma wants to cut to be honest so I'm just guessing). Progressives say 3.5T is as low as they want to go, conservative/centrists want it to only be as high as 1T to 1.5T. Compromise is finding something in the middle, not telling progressive to take another one for the team and accept what a conservative dem wants. This whole episode is another in a long line of instances where the conservative Senate democrat holds the party hostage to get what they want, and they will likely succeed (think Obamacare and Joe Lieberman). That's not compromise at all and the Progressives do have a legitimate complaint. Oldschool is right about Manchin. Progressive hate him, but they need to get more of their own to win in Senate races to nullify him. They have had some success in House races (normally safe democratic seats where they oust a moderate dem). Maybe that strategy could be applicable. It's either that or go third party. To which I say good luck. You want to see where Democrats and Republicans 100% agree, it's in lawsuits to keep third parties off the ballot. As I wrote earlier, I hope the stupid saber rattling ends soon and they actually compromise so that everyone gets something of what they want in these bills. I doubt it happens at this point. Even if the bill passes, it may end up being a pyrrhic victory. Yet again, Democrats on the brink of fumbling the ball. Good post. One point of contention though. 6T was never realistic and 3.5T as a ceiling was what passed the Senate to kick off the reconciliation discussion. Saying the Progressives already Compromised on 3.5T is flat out wrong and it shows there continues to be a disconnect on how legislation is formed and passed. You have to understand whether you have the votes or not and if you don't, you have to either get them or compromise on what the final product looks like. luvyablue256 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvyablue256 Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 1 minute ago, oldschool said: Good post. One point of contention though. 6T was never realistic and 3.5T as a ceiling was what passed the Senate to kick off the reconciliation discussion. Saying the Progressives already Compromised on 3.5T is flat out wrong and it shows there continues to be a disconnect on how legislation is formed and passed. You have to understand whether you have the votes or not and if you don't, you have to either get them or compromise on what the final product looks like. This fundamental misunderstanding is the fault of Republican owned mainstream media (even the so-called liberal & progressive media) that peddles outrage that helps the GOP in the end. The idea that Democrats must be punished for (insert excuse here) is nothing but a GOP backdoor end-around operation. You see it on MSNBC, CNN, TYT, Jacobin and many others. Key example now is the Senate Parliamentarian and the immigration language. The Dems KNEW this would happen and wrote it there anyway, because they feel they have to do everything they can just to say they tried. But instead of explaining WHY this language violates the rule, media orgs simply peddle outrage of the "what" instead of the "why." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitansPDO Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 7 minutes ago, oldschool said: Good post. One point of contention though. 6T was never realistic and 3.5T as a ceiling was what passed the Senate to kick off the reconciliation discussion. Saying the Progressives already Compromised on 3.5T is flat out wrong and it shows there continues to be a disconnect on how legislation is formed and passed. You have to understand whether you have the votes or not and if you don't, you have to either get them or compromise on what the final product looks like. I get what you are saying, that's why I indicated it was a sign of compromise. but I do agree progressive need to compromise at this point. However, I expect compromise from the conservatives as well. If they continue to insist at 1T to 1.5T, that's not really compromise. That's take it or leave language. Hopefully, both factions will get to a number they is acceptable that includes what they want. Realistically, I dont see why something in the range of 2T to 2.5T wouldnt make everybody happy. Starkiller 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titans279 Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 I honestly don’t care about the infrastructure bill. Seems like if the Democrats fail to pass their real agenda then there was no point to voting from them. They’ll likely lose control in 2022. All this talk of compromise and focusing on expanding majority is a literal fantasy. luvyablue256, and oldschool 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.