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2 great PFF articles on Isabella & JJAW sum up exactly what we're missing at WR

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6 minutes ago, newschool said:

Yet when we have a dominant DT in Casey, 3 badass ILB, and a deep secondary we still talk about our need for more at those positions. It's like we see being good isn't good enough for defense as an organization and even fanbase but are so satisfied with a middling WR corps. Hell there's been more talk about adding more RBs and TEs than WRs this off-season. 

 

We already have a probowl DT in Casey. Have we already addressed the position? Yes, but another dominant guy next to him could transform the defense. Same with Corey Davis, who by the way at this point is not even close to par with a caliber of player as Casey. A dominant #2 would transform the offense with Humphries in the slot and Walker coming back healthy.

 

Roethlesberger only threw for 30+ TDs once in the past 4 years and that was last year. Antonio Brown wasn't enough, they needed JuJu too. We need to find our JuJu bc Humphries is an addition but not enough.

 

Excellent points.  I have no idea what they are thinking, except they need to improve the OL.  Word is they want to build the offense around Henry, so I don't see them expecting a Big Ben type year from Mariota.  I can see TE, but not WR.  The thing about JRob is he continues to build every position, so who knows.

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8 hours ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

Taylor would be a great Tedd Ginn type or even an Az Hakim in a spread down field offense as the 4th receiver. That isn’t a slight. 

I think that's his floor.  But when was the last time Titan's fans actually went through the process of watching a young WR grow?  Derrick Mason? Drew Bennett?  That was decades ago. I doubt anyone remembers what that process was like, mainly because we tend to forgive and actually acknowledge that a learning curve was involved once they become consistently productive.  Literally dozens to hundreds of WRs have gone through the same thing that Taylor has early in their careers.  Those guys were basically invisible prior to year 4.

1 hour ago, Justafan said:

He got the third most cushion and was like #66 in terms of separation at the point of catch.  Taylor isn't as good as you think he is.  He made some catches, he dropped some important passes (not the end of the world) but he was rarely good enough to be running free.  He's got speed and he can sneak out but he's not a deep burner and he's not a solid outside WR.  

 

WRs are found in rounds 3-7 all the time.  I've already said that Taylor is going to be the main option on the outside as he should.  You still bring in more guys to try and get better and add competition.  They just have even bigger needs at other positions.  

Not a single WR with more separation per target had 1,000 yards.   And I'm not sure where his #66 ranking comes from, because he's in the top 40 in Sep/target per Next Gen Stats, and nearly half of the players in front of him are TEs.

 

I agree about competition.  And we clearly had a need for immediate production and consistency with Matthews leaving, which is why we now have Humphries.

 

2 hours ago, ctm said:

The argument for JJAW isn't based on snap count.  It's matchup and situational. 

 

Taylor's speed is neutralized in the red zone.  He's not that effective with contested catches.

 

JJAW is a former basketball player who excels at boxing out the defender and makes the contested catch with ease.  He's a guy who can turn FGs into TDs.

 

Obviously, JJAW offers a lot more than that, but that is his main advantage.  He brings a different skill set than Taylor.  To put it another way, JJAW, Humphrey and Taylor all play significant snaps, depending on situation and matchup.

 

 

Our QB was one of the best in 16, and one of the worst in 17 in the red zone.  With the same exact WRs.  6 of the top 10 TD leaders were Antonio Brown, Davante Adams, Tyreek Hill, Tyler Lockett, Calvin Ridley, and Stefon Diggs.  Not exactly jump ball guys, most not bigger than Taylor, all with very good QBs.  That really is a pipe dream, especially early in receiver's career, to think that they'll be able to come in and box everyone out in the red zone for easy scores to assist a struggling QB

Edited by abc2330

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11 minutes ago, Justafan said:

Next-gen stats are next to worthless as are most stats, including the ones I posted, but here's the link where I got the #66 for separation.  If you scroll down his profile to efficiency you'll see the metric.  It doesn't necessarily mean anything.  Desean Jackson is #20 and Julio Jones is #62 but it does point out how worthless the argument you've been making has actually been.

 

Taylor isn't getting wide open and then Mariota is just afraid to hit him.  He's just not very good.  He's on par with most #3 WRs across the league except he was playing the #2 spot last year with little help from other producers after Walker went down and the running game wasn't producing.

 

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/taywan-taylor/

 

What this actually highlights is how much Mariota was doing with very little and how damn good Corey Davis actually is to get 890 yards of production with very limited targets and when everyone in the secondary sees him as the only real threat.  

Taylor's YPG put him at 600 if he were to play a full 16 games.  So 600 is just trash, and 890 is damn good?  Even if they viewed Davis as the bigger threat, they still had their #2 guy on Taylor.  It's tough for any second year 3rd round WR to produce under those circumstances, and though the results were inconsistent, he ended the year strongly and showed too much promise to immediately move on from him, IMO.  a rookie absolutely wouldn't be the answer

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1 hour ago, newschool said:

There's no way a DB would get this kind of grace. Oh he's got great speed, sure he allows some separation or he loses contested catches but he's learning and he'll get better over time. If he can't line up, if he can't catch the tough catch then he isn't better than a #4 option at this point 

Uhh, wait a minute.

There's already a Titan DB that got that kind of grace.  His name is Adoree, and while he did well against NE, he collapsed against TY Hilton and the Colts.

Not that that justifies Taylor's issues, but between Butler and Adoree, there we plenty of problems in the secondary at times last year.

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15 minutes ago, abc2330 said:

Taylor's YPG put him at 600 if he were to play a full 16 games.  So 600 is just trash, and 890 is damn good?  Even if they viewed Davis as the bigger threat, they still had their #2 guy on Taylor.  It's tough for any second year 3rd round WR to produce under those circumstances, and though the results were inconsistent, he ended the year strongly and showed too much promise to immediately move on from him, IMO.  a rookie absolutely wouldn't be the answer

And this is why stats don't matter.  Taylor wasn't in the same hemisphere as Corey Davis was last year.  Davis was a top 20 WR and Taylor was closer to a top 80.  I don't need any stat to tell me.  No one watching the games SHOULD need a stat to tell them that. 

 

Also, I never said Taylor was trash.  He's just not very good.  Big difference.  DGB was trash.  Taylor has value.  You've pushed a narrative, however, that Taylor on another team would be as good as say Cooper Kupp or JuJu Smith Schuester and the only thing that is holding him back is QB play.  The entire argument is empty and based on Next-gen stats that don't even report what you think they do.  It was a silly argument from the beginning and the more holes that get poked in it, the less substance you bring.  

 

Also, even though you could do some math and say that Taylor was on pace to put up 570 yards on the season, that's not what he actually put up so not only are we arguing over worthless stats but now you've brought even more worthless -projected stats- into the equation.  

 

Taylor was ok.  Ok.  Accept it.  Love it.  Own it.  Move on.  

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Don't even need to take my word for it when it comes to Taylor.  This is an offense that was desperate for production with barely any weapons after Mathews quit, Dalnie went down and Jonnu struggled.  They NEEDED someone to produce.  Even in that environment, Taylor was able to get about 55% of snaps and street guys like Batson and company were getting significant playing time.  Sharpe played on almost 70% of the snaps this last season.  What does that tell you?  The Titans thought that Sharpe gave them a better chance to win for a majority of the season last year.  You can extrapolate why but the narrative should die.  

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26 minutes ago, Justafan said:

Don't even need to take my word for it when it comes to Taylor.  This is an offense that was desperate for production with barely any weapons after Mathews quit, Dalnie went down and Jonnu struggled.  They NEEDED someone to produce.  Even in that environment, Taylor was able to get about 55% of snaps and street guys like Batson and company were getting significant playing time.  Sharpe played on almost 70% of the snaps this last season.  What does that tell you?  The Titans thought that Sharpe gave them a better chance to win for a majority of the season last year.  You can extrapolate why but the narrative should die.  

And Henry was getting outsnapped until LaFluer realized what he could do if put in a position to succeed. 

 

Judging From Vrabel's comments, they realized the value that Taylor brought while he was out due to injury, and his snap count came up so that they could utilize him.  And during that 4 game stretch after his return (before the Gabbert debacle in the final game), he averaged over 60 YPG during a span where we weren't exactly throwing the ball that frequently.  So when treated like a #2 guy, as opposed to putting ineffective players on the field, he produced like a very good #2. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, abc2330 said:

And Henry was getting outsnapped until LaFluer realized what he could do if put in a position to succeed. 

 

Judging From Vrabel's comments, they realized the value that Taylor brought while he was out due to injury, and his snap count came up so that they could utilize him.  And during that 4 game stretch after his return (before the Gabbert debacle in the final game), he averaged over 60 YPG during a span where we weren't exactly throwing the ball that frequently.  So when treated like a #2 guy, as opposed to putting ineffective players on the field, he produced like a very good #2. 

 

 

Great!  Now we're using cherry picked stats!  Even better!

 

It's a bad argument.  Get over it.  

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1 hour ago, TitanDuckFan said:

Uhh, wait a minute.

There's already a Titan DB that got that kind of grace.  His name is Adoree, and while he did well against NE, he collapsed against TY Hilton and the Colts.

Not that that justifies Taylor's issues, but between Butler and Adoree, there we plenty of problems in the secondary at times last year.

First off people complained about Butler all year and there were plenty of complaints about Adoree. Also Adoree gave up some plays but he's also ranked as a top 25 corner by pff  https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-top-25-cornerbacks-in-the-nfl-in-2018

 

Adoree at this point is a much better player than Taylor. Taylor had a paltry 56 targets, half of what Corey Davis got in 112. They were clearly force-feeding Davis bc Taylor and Sharpe suck by comparison.  WRs have the benefit of disappearing when they suck, DBs disappear when they are doing well. But please don't make this an argument about Adoree, please tell me why Taylor should be relied upon coming up on the most important season of Mariota's career?

 

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22 minutes ago, Justafan said:

Great!  Now we're using cherry picked stats!  Even better!

 

It's a bad argument.  Get over it.  

And we should be able to come to an adequate conclusion about our players in a season where we had a starting QB who couldn't grip a ball during half the season, in addition to Gabbert?  And a first time OC?  If we solely look at the season stats, Mariota is complete dog shit and should not even be in consideration for a starting job.  Since you're big on production, we had a replacement caliber QB whose inability to play the position at an adequate level had a direct effect on everyone's production around him

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12 minutes ago, newschool said:

First off people complained about Butler all year and there were plenty of complaints about Adoree. Also Adoree gave up some plays but he's also ranked as a top 25 corner by pff  https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-top-25-cornerbacks-in-the-nfl-in-2018

 

Adoree at this point is a much better player than Taylor. Taylor had a paltry 56 targets, half of what Corey Davis got in 112. They were clearly force-feeding Davis bc Taylor and Sharpe suck by comparison.  WRs have the benefit of disappearing when they suck, DBs disappear when they are doing well. But please don't make this an argument about Adoree, please tell me why Taylor should be relied upon coming up on the most important season of Mariota's career?

 

If you're waiting for me to defend Taylor's 2018 season, you're in for a Long-Assed wait.  That ain't happening.

That doesn't change the fact that Adoree just sucked against Luck & T.Y. and he admitted it.

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Just now, abc2330 said:

And we should be able to come to an adequate conclusion about our players in a season where we had a starting QB who couldn't grip a ball during half the season, in addition to Gabbert?  And a first time OC?  If we solely look at the season stats, Mariota is complete dog shit and should not even be in consideration for a starting job.  Since you're big on production, we had a replacement caliber QB whose inability to play the position at an adequate level had a direct effect on everyone's production around him

Sigh.  And now we come to the actual argument.  Marcus was around 24th in the league by my estimation.  Of course, it's all subjective and it's really difficult to compare guys playing in different systems against vastly different competition against each other fairly but Mariota is not a replacement level player and the stats, since you insist on using them, don't support your argument unless you look at the least predictive ones and ignore the rest.  

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I wouldn't invest heavily in CB but if there's a guy they really like, why not take a swing on a later round pick?  Mooreland, the CB they've shown the most interest in is probably a 6th rounder.  If he ends up contributing in any way, it's a pretty good deal.  

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