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OFFICIAL Biden thread, since it looks like he's getting in

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Mythos27   
1 minute ago, Starkiller said:

Its a fucking election. Someone wins, anyone else loses. No one is being pushed down anyone's throat at all. She won. Bernie lost.

 

 

As I have said, I will vote for whoever the Dems nominate. Anyone. Anyone. I’m not going to throw a tantrum.

 

And if the Bernie Bros had said this in 2016, Trump wouldn’t be president. It was either Hillary or Trump and they didn’t care about the consequences. 

When I say Hillary was forced down our throats, I'm not talking about the actual voting. I'm referring to the rhetoric coming from that side during the primary campaign. I have no issues with the actual result. It is what it is. I too will support anyone that emerges from the primary process. Btw, your continues shots are Bernie bros are funny considering that group doesn't exist and never did. 

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Just now, Mythos27 said:

When I say Hillary was forced down our throats, I'm not talking about the actual voting. I'm referring to the rhetoric coming from that side during the primary campaign. I have no issues with the actual result. It is what it is. I too will support anyone that emerges from the primary process. Btw, your continues shots are Bernie bros are funny considering that group doesn't exist and never did. 

Rhetoric is inconsequential. If rhetoric changed anything, Hillary would have beaten Obama in 2008.

 

The Bernie Bros absolutely existed. And perhaps they still do...

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I have to remind myself that Twitter is not real life but the Bernie / Clinton sectarian battle is still raging there for sure. It feels much larger than it is due to it raging on social media instead of being pretty much hidden before. 

 

IRL it’s something that’s always happened too though. 

 

Obama lost a higher percentage of ‘08 Clinton supporters to McCain than ‘16 Clinton lost Bernie voters. So it’s not something new or exclusive to the new left. 

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Cyrus   
45 minutes ago, Mythos27 said:

Cyrus, I respect you but I fundamentally reject your framing that progressives need to "grow up" and are trying to become "the most extreme party possible". I'm sure you mean well but this is the exact kind of condescending language that makes people like me bristle at "moderates". What I see, is that progressives are actually fighting for the positions that most of the country supports. The democratic party didn't have to move to left on issues like medicare for all just because progressives are loud and annoying to them. They moved when they realized that those ideas had popular support.

 

Rather than view progressives as some insurgent virus, it would be more useful to see them as a faction that helps them stay in touch with how Americans outside of the political and donor class feel about where we should be headed as a country. I'm not opposed to incremental change, I've just seen enough that if you start from a position of incrementalism or moderation it leads to stagnation due to our current political climate and the conservative nature of our legislative process. The rational for being aggressive on policy proposals is that if you start with everything on the table, the eventual compromise will likely net you more of what you want vs starting by immediately conceding most of what you want and just hoping the other side (republicans) act in good faith. What the Republicans did to the ACA and to Obama in general taught me that these people are playing for keeps and we need to stop handing them cudgels to beat us with. 

@Mythos27 

 

But didn't the Tea Party say that to the rest of the Republican party? Isn't that what Republicans have done with their own insurgent interest group? I'm not suggesting that having a mix of opinions in a party is a bad thing - our two parties are actually coalitions of different interests. But it is hugely problematic when one wing essentially adopts the attitude that they're going to take their ball and go home if they have to compromise, because supporting a position or candidate who supports fossil fuels in any respect means that they're "part of the problem" or some type of restriction on abortion means "they're against women rights". If you didn't have moderates around any particular issue it's unlikely you could get anything done, because the actual list of people who check all the boxes for the conservative or progressive positions is actually narrow. 

 

A moderate or centrists position that compromise is necessary or even good is not because they don't have true ideological beliefs.  That's generally the conceit of those who see themselves as more "ideologically pure" in either wing. However said compromise or moderation is often very necessary for any meaningful, or durable reform. The stagnation right now is not due to too many moderates, it's because there's not enough of them. 

 

I've heard a lot of from ideological progressives and conservatives about "aggressive policy proposals" in negotiations. (I.E. the now in fashion "Overton Window"). The only problem, is that there's no evidence that this approach is effective or even really true at all, and it's not a serious academic social science theory. It's grown around the conservative movement and now it's spreading to progressives. It's stalling our politics and now it's causing people to double down on their positions. To me that's complete nonsense (and I'm speaking broadly here since you didn't bring up the term), but as soon as more than one group participates in aggressive deal making or "Overton Window" theoretical approaches the whole thing falls apart because each group only has an incentive to move farther apart. (which is exactly what's happening right now in the political realm)

Edited by Cyrus

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Mythos27   
4 minutes ago, oldschool said:

Thanks to you taking your ball and going home we have a conservative supreme court and a moron in the oval office. You and everyone like you should have gotten behind her even if you didnt like her. The alternative was far worse and we are paying the price for your lack of understanding of what was at stake. I'm starting to see the same mindset this go around and its troubling.

Oh look, an outdated and inaccurate talking point from 2016. Most of those Bernie to Trump voters were people who never identified themselves as democrats or leftists. They were independents who voted only because they were interested in Bernie and then fell for Trump's populism. Those people were never going to vote for Hillary. The standard Bernie supporter voted for Hillary at a higher rate than Hillary Clinton primary voters voted for Barack Obama in 08. But why let pesky facts get in the way of a perfectly good narrative you can use to guilt/ shame people you already have it out for. 

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Rolltide   
1 minute ago, Mythos27 said:

Oh look, an outdated and inaccurate talking point from 2016. Most of those Bernie to Trump voters were people who never identified themselves as democrats or leftists. They were independents who voted only because they were interested in Bernie and then fell for Trump's populism. Those people were never going to vote for Hillary. The standard Bernie supporter voted for Hillary at a higher rate than Hillary Clinton primary voters voted for Barack Obama in 08. But why let pesky facts get in the way of a perfectly good narrative you can use to guilt/ shame people you already have it out for. 

 

Those people were spot in with their vote because what we have now is the best economy for working people in decades. 

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Bernie supporters didn’t take their ball and go home anymore than Clinton supporters did to Obama in 2008. 

 

This is a huge flaw in your arguments against the new left. 

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