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TennesseeTuxedo

If Socialism Is The Answer....Why???????

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Getting tens of thousands more worth of good government services in exchange for a few thousand more is taxes certainly isn’t free. But it is still a good deal, as any capitalist would tell you...

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1 hour ago, Starkiller said:

Getting tens of thousands more worth of good government services in exchange for a few thousand more is taxes certainly isn’t free. But it is still a good deal, as any capitalist would tell you...

My working days are behind me SK.  At least I hope they are.  So you'll have to ask those in the upper-middle income brackets how they would feel about sinking 60+% of their hard earned wages into a government when most of them don't trust the people in charge.

So, will those government services always be good?

 

That's one thing about high taxes.  The resentment builds even faster when you disagree with how that money gets spent.

You guys for instance, can't stand Trump.  Yet here you are advocating for giving him a lot of control over 60% or more of your paycheck.

Is that REALLY what you want to do?  Because it's been proven you can't do this by taxing "the rich" alone.

Do you think a congress with a <20% approval rating is going to be the best stewards of that cash?  If we don't trust them with 8-13%, what makes you think we'll trust them with 60+%?

 

And don't tell me there will never be another Obama that pisses off the conservatives, or a Dubya or a Trump that pisses off the progressives.  Or a Pelosi or a Tip O'Neill or a Denny Hastert or a Gingrich holding the Speaker's gavel, just because the economic policies have shifted to Socialist.  That's a bad fantasy.

This is American politics and the pendulum always swings.  Sometimes to the extreme.

Edited by TitanDuckFan

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47 minutes ago, Starkiller said:

Getting tens of thousands more worth of good government services in exchange for a few thousand more is taxes certainly isn’t free. But it is still a good deal, as any capitalist would tell you...

The problem is getting "good" govt services.  That's a strong assumption to make.  A capitalist will say more efficient and cheaper is better.   

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1 hour ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

We can agree on most of this. What do you think about my question? 

I don't know, I haven't researched it, or even read that study.

I know there's a lot of people that Medicare, Medicaid and/or the VA Healthcare system doesn't work for.

And I know that all of those systems get abused by people on all sides of them.  But I suppose that will always be the case.

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7 minutes ago, Little Earl said:

The problem is getting "good" govt services.  That's a strong assumption to make.  A capitalist will say more efficient and cheaper is better.   

They seem to manage to provide “good” government services and the people are happy in those other countries. Thus there is no reason it can’t be done here.

 

And seeing as how capitalism has not led us to either cheaper or more efficient healthcare, education, etc I’d say the pro-capitalism argument does not hold for government services. It’s fine for building cars or smartphones or making movies or any other free market product. It has simply failed us for public services.

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19 minutes ago, TitanDuckFan said:

My working days are behind me SK.  At least I hope they are.  So you'll have to ask those in the upper-middle income brackets how they would feel about sinking 60+% of their hard earned wages into a government when most of them don't trust the people in charge.

Not trusting the people in charge has been largely right wing propaganda. The whole “government is bad” manta is what has gotten us into this mess. Ironically, it’s what put a truly corrupt man like Trump in the White House.

 

As for higher taxes, people would be way more happy to pay them if they were also told they largely wouldn’t be paying out of pocket for  things like healthcare or education anymore...

 

 

19 minutes ago, TitanDuckFan said:

So, will those government services always be good?

As long as the people want good government and vote their interests then they should generally be good. And when they aren’t, people will get voted out of office. That’s how those happy countries remain happy... democratic socialism.

 

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19 minutes ago, Starkiller said:

Not trusting the people in charge has been largely right wing propaganda. The whole “government is bad” manta is what has gotten us into this mess. Ironically, it’s what put a truly corrupt man like Trump in the White House.

For the truly self aware, it would be an absolute living hell existing inside the dichotomy of thought you display SK.

You believe Trump is truly corrupt.  You KNOW he's in the White House.  Hence, you believe "government is bad" since Trump sits at the head of it.  Yet you deny that government can be bad.

Then state that the "government is bad mant(r)a" is a construct of right wing propaganda.  WTF?

 

How do you do that?  What mechanism in your mind prevents you from recognizing the fallacy within your own statements?

Do you think the shift to socialism economically will magically cause people you agree with to win every election?

 

The Yellow Vests have been protesting violently in France for weeks now.  Is it really right-wing propaganda that has people in the street telling Macron to take his tax rates and his enviro-gas taxes and shove them up his ass?

That led the Brits to Brexit?

That got Trump elected?

WTF newscast were YOU watching?

 

You're a statist SK, I get that.  But to be SO blind to all that's happened, and all that ALWAYS happens politically, is foolish in the extreme.

Socialism can't fix this.  And it needs to be fixed before any major shift in economic policy, or we're screwed.

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I didn’t say government is bad just because Trump is corrupt. But when you put corrupt people in charge of government it becomes worse. That shouldn’t be so hard to grasp.

 

Anyone following the right wing “government is bad” mantra will inherently fight to tear down government. You guys have been fighting against Medicare and Social Security since the beginning. You hate public schools. You hate food stamps. You hate any service that isn’t driven by profit motive. 

 

Well guess what... public services can’t work effectively if they are profit driven. That isn’t a statist view, it’s the view of anyone who can pragmatically look at how things work. A huge percentage of the population simply can’t afford these services. They can choose to not pay for a cell phone or a TV, but you can’t choose to not get medical care. And you sure as hell can't compare prices on medical services when you are in the middle of a heart attack.

 

If you want to live in a democratic country then it means that the people count. They need access to necessary services. If you want to live in an oligarchy or a feudal state or a monarchy then certainly the government doesn’t need to provide anything for the people. And perhaps that’s what you want...

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Justafan   
5 hours ago, TitanDuckFan said:

I don't know, I haven't researched it, or even read that study.

I know there's a lot of people that Medicare, Medicaid and/or the VA Healthcare system doesn't work for.

And I know that all of those systems get abused by people on all sides of them.  But I suppose that will always be the case.

The VA I can personally attest to being a nightmare.  I have several friends that have been really taken care of but I have other friends who went through nightmare scenarios.  

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30 minutes ago, Justafan said:

The VA I can personally attest to being a nightmare.  I have several friends that have been really taken care of but I have other friends who went through nightmare scenarios.  

I'm certain there's good and bad, positive and negative about any health care or at least the perception of it.

My dad got decent if unnecessary care at the VA.  The nurses especially seemed to care, and truly tried to make him more comfortable.

But some of the decisions that were made were really baffling.  It was like they wanted to treat someone for acne just because they had a pimple, when what the patient really needs is a kidney transplant.

He went in with COPD and a year or less to live, and they put him through a battery of tests and imaging for everything else.

Like a colonoscopy looking for polyps "just in case" he might be susceptible to colon cancer, and a bone density test, and a full blood screening.

The blood screening came back that his O2 levels were low,...  Gee, ya think?

 

And then there was the waste.  They gave pops a super deluxe mobility scooter about 6 months before he died.  About $2500 worth (of 1998 dollars).

He used it a grand total of about 6 times.  It didn't have 2 miles on it when he died.

So when he was gone I tried to donate it back to them.  They wouldn't take it.  They just flat refused it, saying if anyone else needed one they'd buy them a new one, and that I should sell it or donate it to someone else, like my local Senior Center.

 

My brother on the other hand, they wouldn't do a damned thing for.  They put him through a nightmare of red tape and delays, and then made promises they never kept.

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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-finland-government-idUSKCN1QP0R6

 

Finland's cabinet quits over failure to deliver healthcare reform

 

Quote

HELSINKI (Reuters) - Finland’s coalition government resigned on Friday a month ahead of a general election, saying it could not deliver on a healthcare reform package that is widely seen as crucial to securing long-term government finances.

Healthcare systems across much of the developed world have come under increasing stress in recent years as treatment costs soar and people live longer, meaning fewer workers are supporting more pensioners.

Nordic countries, where comprehensive welfare is the cornerstone of the social model, have been among the most affected. But reform has been controversial and, in Finland, plans to cut costs and boost efficiency have stalled for years.

How many here have ever looked at Finnish tax rates?

The have a 24% VAT.  It's actually a tiered system based on the type of purchase, but it's still 14% for foodstuffs.  A 14% tax to feed your kids.

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/country-guides/europe/finland/finnish-vat-rates.html

 

They have a tiered system of income taxes that tops out at around 30%.   On 64k Euros annually.

http://worldwide-tax.com/finland/finland_tax.asp

Something known as a municipal tax that amounts to about 20%.

Taxes on Capital Gains of 20%

A corporate tax rate of 20%

and a Social Security tax to the employee of around 9-10%, that also hits the employer for around 23%.

 

All told the average tax rate on Finnish citizens hovers around 52%.

https://tradingeconomics.com/finland/personal-income-tax-rate

 

Even with tax rates like that, the Finnish government can't make their public Health Care system sustainable, and they know it.

And they've been trying to make it work for years apparently.

 

Imagine paying 50+% in taxes, and being told that's not enough.

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