Cohen sentence to 36 mos.

[Legaltitan]

14 hours ago, Justafan said:

Nepalotano has been straight hammering trumptard mental gymnastics this week.  He's out there in his own right but on this, he's dead on.

The Deep State got to him, too. This is The deepest state anyone has ever seen. Lot's of people are saying that.

[Legaltitan]

1 hour ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

The Dems would be smart, as I've said for over a year, to let this thing play out in the court of public opinion and remove him legitimately in 2020. Do not impeach this guy unless there is hardcore evidence he conspired against the US.

 

These people have been led down a tunnel of conspiracy flamed by Russians, and they're absolutely dangerous. When you taken into account the fact you're looking at likely close to 45-50 million Americans who are in the cult it makes all the more sense to let it play out politically. If somehow the retard is reelected then you use the full weight to remove him. 

I am pretty much right with you, with one twist. I think there is a chance the evidence is so bad and public opinion is significant enough that Congress would have not only justification, but a duty, to impeach. The problem is I don't think we will be at that point for several months still, and at that point you might as well just let Mueller keep taking down bad guys and swamp creatures and beat this bunch at the polls.

 

To put it another way, the only way this ends well for the Republican Party and its Senators and Representatives is if the Dems jump the gun on impeachment. That would be like throwing them a lifeline. Let them sweat, let the convictions keep piling up, let Giuliani keep making an ass out of himself, let Mueller keep doing the hard work. 

[Legaltitan]

1 hour ago, ctm said:

And if his crimes are ongoing?

Trump is going to burn it all down on the way out if he is impeached anyway.

[IsntLifeFunny]

3 minutes ago, Legaltitan said:

I am pretty much right with you, with one twist. I think there is a chance the evidence is so bad and public opinion is significant enough that Congress would have not only justification, but a duty, to impeach. The problem is I don't think we will be at that point for several months still, and at that point you might as well just let Mueller keep taking down bad guys and swamp creatures and beat this bunch at the polls.

 

To put it another way, the only way this ends well for the Republican Party and its Senators and Representatives is if the Dems jump the gun on impeachment. That would be like throwing them a lifeline. Let them sweat, let the convictions keep piling up, let Giuliani keep making an ass out of himself, let Mueller keep doing the hard work. 

 

1 hour ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

Do not impeach this guy unless there is hardcore evidence he conspired against the US.

 

We are on the same page. 

[IsntLifeFunny]

3 minutes ago, Legaltitan said:

Trump is going to burn it all down on the way out if he is impeached anyway.

The only way he can't is if the evidence is insurmountable. Even then the idiots are going to cause trouble. My genuine hope is the massive amount of these idiots are nothing more than overweight 50 year olds getting their information from FB. There is hope on that front in my opinion. 

[Justafan]

1 hour ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

You should see the response to this video. They're thrashing Napolitano as a traitor. It's amazing. Jamal and I have been saying for a while that there is a deep infection inside our country right now. It could possibly break us imo if things roll sideways on us.

 

There was an opinion piece in the WaPo from a Trump supporter saying this investigation could backfire. The idiot had no idea what he was talking about, but I found myself agreeing with him even though he didn't understand what he was saying. I think his name was Theilsen. The Dems would be smart, as I've said for over a year, to let this thing play out in the court of public opinion and remove him legitimately in 2020. Do not impeach this guy unless there is hardcore evidence he conspired against the US.

 

These people have been led down a tunnel of conspiracy flamed by Russians, and they're absolutely dangerous. When you taken into account the fact you're looking at likely close to 45-50 million Americans who are in the cult it makes all the more sense to let it play out politically. If somehow the retard is reelected then you use the full weight to remove him. 

I respect that position but I disagree.  We are a nation of laws.  You can't look the other way just because it is politically and socially convenient to do so.  I supported prosecuting Hillary Clinton and others based on their wrongdoing and I absolutely support going after Trump on every front.

 

This is a guy who has been dirty at every opportunity, is mixed up with mobsters and foreign adversaries, and has used his platform at every opportunity to enrich himself at the expense of the plight of the most vulnerable of our society.  

 

Yes, people will be upset and maybe they will scream and holler and even be dangerous but I think it is even more dangerous longterm to let this stuff go unchecked or even let it be legitimized.  Look how hard they've pushed to normalize Donald Trump.  It opens the door to someone even worse down the road.  It opens the door to like-minded thinkers to feel like they can inject in the discussion at the expense of our nation's values and most entrusted institutions.  

 

I don't know if they can impeach him but they absolutely have a responsibility to the American people to follow this investigation to the end.  I would accept nothing less and I believe most people feel the same. 

[IsntLifeFunny]

Just now, Justafan said:

I respect that position but I disagree.  We are a nation of laws.  You can't look the other way just because it is politically and socially convenient to do so.  I supported prosecuting Hillary Clinton and others based on their wrongdoing and I absolutely support going after Trump on every front.

 

This is a guy who has been dirty at every opportunity, is mixed up with mobsters and foreign adversaries, and has used his platform at every opportunity to enrich himself at the expense of the plight of the most vulnerable of our society.  

 

Yes, people will be upset and maybe they will scream and holler and even be dangerous but I think it is even more dangerous longterm to let this stuff go unchecked or even let it be legitimized.  Look how hard they've pushed to normalize Donald Trump.  It opens the door to someone even worse down the road.  It opens the door to like-minded thinkers to feel like they can inject in the discussion at the expense of our nation's values and most entrusted institutions.  

 

I don't know if they can impeach him but they absolutely have a responsibility to the American people to follow this investigation to the end.  I would accept nothing less and I believe most people feel the same. 

I said nothing along the lines of not following the investigation through. Every single investigation needs to be completed. I'm saying directly if they do not find hard evidence of conspiracy against the US then we need to remove him in 2020 peacefully and then allow the court systems to work. No president is going to pardon that son of a bitch. 

[Legaltitan]

7 minutes ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

The only way he can't is if the evidence is insurmountable. 

The problem with that is most people don't even understand what evidence is. I am not trying to talk down here but it is just a fact. When people say they want "evidence" or "proof," what they mean is they either want cool sciency forensic evidence like they see on CSI, or they want a video like seeing that asshole from the Ravens beat the shit out of his girlfriend. I understand most people don't deal with cases and evidence, but then add to that the CSI crime shows, and then add to that the gaslighting by Trump "NO COLLUSION! NO EVIDENCE!" and you have a problem. People literally want a smoking gun, or its equivalent.

 

But in cases like this, and indeed in the overwhelming majority of cases, civil and criminal, evidence doesn't look like that. The most common form of evidence, even in a garden variety murder trial (especially in those), is witness testimony. Like the kind we are getting right now in Mueller's cases and the associated cases in other courts. that's what evidence looks like, a witness sworn to tell the truth, telling what they know. And then the next most common form of evidence is documents. And those two things, other than maybe a lucky Cohen tape here or there, are all that we will have in this thing. So, people here witness testimony or witness statements, and they say "that's not evidence! that's not proof!" and many really believe that. And then your average person is not going to read a bunch of documents. So in the minds of many, despite the ironclad cases being built, there is still "NO EVIDENCE! NO PROOF!" And the reason is because they have no idea what those things mean.

[Legaltitan]

7 minutes ago, Justafan said:

I respect that position but I disagree.  We are a nation of laws.  You can't look the other way just because it is politically and socially convenient to do so. 

On the one hand you are correct. On the other hand, impeachment is not a legal process - it is a political process. The politics of impeachment matter because it is an intentionally political process. To convict in the Senate you need the supermajority. Which means you have to have consensus. Next to amending the Constitution, impeachment is the next most difficult thing to do. To build that kind of consensus with the Senate, members of both parties, you have to first line up public opinion. So it is politics, plain and simple.

 

Sure, the Democrats could impeach at any time, but without the ability to convict in the Senate, you are just farting in the wind.

[Justafan]

4 minutes ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

I said nothing along the lines of not following the investigation through. Every single investigation needs to be completed. I'm saying directly if they do not find hard evidence of conspiracy against the US then we need to remove him in 2020 peacefully and then allow the court systems to work. No president is going to pardon that son of a bitch. 

Okay, so I agree on that front.  The problem is, there is already enough there that the POTUS should be facing jail time on multiple felonies with tons more coming based just on what we know right now.  That doesn't even include the redacted stuff or the easy connect the dots stuff that we strongly suspect.  I don't see any way this investigation concludes without the strong recommendation for impeachment followed by criminal proceedings.  I could be wrong and that's fine, go your route, but I really think he goes down hard.

[Legaltitan]

1 minute ago, Justafan said:

Okay, so I agree on that front.  The problem is, there is already enough there that the POTUS should be facing jail time on multiple felonies with tons more coming based just on what we know right now.  That doesn't even include the redacted stuff or the easy connect the dots stuff that we strongly suspect.  I don't see any way this investigation concludes without the strong recommendation for impeachment followed by criminal proceedings.  I could be wrong and that's fine, go your route, but I really think he goes down hard.

We just have to be patient. Public opinion has shifted ever so slightly already, and all we have him dead to rights on so far is campaign finance violations. Wait until we get to crimes that people actually care about.

[Justafan]

1 minute ago, Legaltitan said:

On the one hand you are correct. On the other hand, impeachment is not a legal process - it is a political process. The politics of impeachment matter because it is an intentionally political process. To convict in the Senate you need the supermajority. Which means you have to have consensus. Next to amending the Constitution, impeachment is the next most difficult thing to do. To build that kind of consensus with the Senate, members of both parties, you have to first line up public opinion. So it is politics, plain and simple.

 

Sure, the Democrats could impeach at any time, but without the ability to convict in the Senate, you are just farting in the wind.

Yea, of course.  We all understand that and I have no doubt the Republicans will do everything they can to block it from even getting to that point.  Just as the Democrats would do if it was one of them in the White House.  

 

I also think this is bigger than left-right politics and they have a responsibility to follow-through.  I think the Dems will do so because it is politically convenient and the Republicans will likely block because it isn't but that doesn't change anything for me.  If he's impeached in the House, he won't run for a second term and the next President will likely be overshadowed by the most dramatic courtroom take-down in political history.

[IsntLifeFunny]

2 minutes ago, Legaltitan said:

The problem with that is most people don't even understand what evidence is. I am not trying to talk down here but it is just a fact. When people say they want "evidence" or "proof," what they mean is they either want cool sciency forensic evidence like they see on CSI, or they want a video like seeing that asshole from the Ravens beat the shit out of his girlfriend. I understand most people don't deal with cases and evidence, but then add to that the CSI crime shows, and then add to that the gaslighting by Trump "NO COLLUSION! NO EVIDENCE!" and you have a problem. People literally want a smoking gun, or its equivalent.

 

But in cases like this, and indeed in the overwhelming majority of cases, civil and criminal, evidence doesn't look like that. The most common form of evidence, even in a garden variety murder trial (especially in those), is witness testimony. Like the kind we are getting right now in Mueller's cases and the associated cases in other courts. that's what evidence looks like, a witness sworn to tell the truth, telling what they know. And then the next most common form of evidence is documents. And those two things, other than maybe a lucky Cohen tape here or there, are all that we will have in this thing. So, people here witness testimony or witness statements, and they say "that's not evidence! that's not proof!" and many really believe that. And then your average person is not going to read a bunch of documents. So in the minds of many, despite the ironclad cases being built, there is still "NO EVIDENCE! NO PROOF!" And the reason is because they have no idea what those things mean.

That's why I said insurmountable. The guy could go full on Nero unless he's checked at every corner. The only way for that to happen is evidence in a manner in which there is no doubt, even to his followers. I don't think we will ever get that, but it's possible.

 

If we don't then the best play is to let the information go to the public and let those who aren't the absolute idiots be shamed. We need to corner these people in a manner that silences them back to the shadows. The only way for that to happen is either direct evidence or the continual flood of damning evidence. These people need to be shamed into silence, because they've taken over an entire wing of a two party system. There's only two ways for that to happen in my opinion. 

[ctm]

10 minutes ago, IsntLifeFunny said:

I said nothing along the lines of not following the investigation through. Every single investigation needs to be completed. I'm saying directly if they do not find hard evidence of conspiracy against the US then we need to remove him in 2020 peacefully and then allow the court systems to work. No president is going to pardon that son of a bitch. 

Trump/Pence lose in 2020. Trump resigns in Dec.  Pence is president for 6 weeks and pardons Trump and family.  What makes you think that Trump and Pence wouldn't do this?

[IsntLifeFunny]

5 minutes ago, Justafan said:

Okay, so I agree on that front.  The problem is, there is already enough there that the POTUS should be facing jail time on multiple felonies with tons more coming based just on what we know right now.  That doesn't even include the redacted stuff or the easy connect the dots stuff that we strongly suspect.  I don't see any way this investigation concludes without the strong recommendation for impeachment followed by criminal proceedings.  I could be wrong and that's fine, go your route, but I really think he goes down hard.

He can go down hard after a peaceful transition. No one is pardoning him.

 

@Legaltitan I haven't followed it enough, so maybe you have, but I know there was a case in front of the Supreme Court where a guy was charged with a felony gun charge in both his state and by the Feds. If he wins it may disrupt the idea people can't be pardoned for state charges as it removes the barrier. Have you seen anything about this or know about it?