“I don’t think they’re gonna run the ball (well) with either running back”

[Harvey_Specter]

14 hours ago, JakePA_Titan said:

According to nfl.com, since 1964, only 20 teams have given up 11 sacks. 

 

I would imagine if it's all due to a damn good pass rush vs a bad OL, it w ou uld have happened a lot more. 

 

Meaning, it has to be more than just bad OL play. 

 

And a quarter of them would be three at most. I don't think it's that far off base to think Mariota could have shared responsibility on three. 

This is just a flawed and stupid rationalization of awful OL play.    Even if Mariota shared some responsibility for some of the sacks, don't you think it is equally likely that any QB that sits behind a porous OL starts to panic, rush throws, take off running once they sense some pressure etc.. and any other typical reactions from a player that feels like he could be hit from any side at any moment?    

Have you actually attended any titans practices this summer?   I have.   Even with a new OC and the early struggles of picking up a new offense, Mariota was very sharp in 11 on 11 on air sessions where he had a red jersey on and could not be hit.   It is pretty damn easy for any competent QB to be very good and very accurate when the thought of getting hit and injured is removed from the equation.   That internal clock ticking in the back of the mind of the QB of how long he has to be able to get rid of the ball in time is a difficult thing to ignore.   Once the faith and lack of confidence of your OL being able to block with any consistency is gone, pretty much every QB starts to behave and preemptively do things they ordinarily would not do.   

Some of this has to fall on the coaches as well.   Try new combinations of OL.  Do a better job of explaining their new scheme to the players.   Have Mariota roll out more, set up protections and have the OL slide to certain sides.   Do more misdirections, bootlegs, motions and plays that help force the opposing defense to hesitate and diagnose the play so they can't keep rushing with reckless abandon.  Teams have been cheating with their DE's, OLB's and corners on contain, they often immediately converge inside not scared of us bouncing it outside or a back side cut.    I don't see teams setting the edge like they always did against Mariota and our strong running game a couple years ago.   Let Mariota run more early on in the game, our offense is so predictable until we get behind and they open up the playbook.   Try mixing up the playcalling on first down, try throwing it on the first 3 downs rather than run, run, throw on 3rd and long.   More 3 step drops, an occasional quick slant, TE sticks, Quick outs and WR screens and HB screens, basically the type of offense we run when we get behind a lot or our 2 min offense.   Half of the issues fall on the players \ OL itself.   The other half resides on the coaches and staff for poorly implementing their scheme, adjusting to the personnel we have, and coming up with game-plans offensively that cater our strengths to the defenses weaknesses.    There are lots of things you can do to help mitigate a struggling OL.   

I was a big fan of LaFleur's pedigree and was excited about this hire, but he has not impressed me at all so far.   I like some of his WR combinations, group formations and route tree stuff, but that is about it.   His play-calling has been below average.   He does not seem to take advantage of match ups the way Shannahan constantly does.   He does not keep exploiting weaknesses and match ups until the other team is forced to change.    Our personnel groupings have been a mess.   Yes we have had a lot of injuries, but the rotations and targets we give players and the way we use our skill players has been managed poorly.   

Mariota is not the problem.   Is he Drew Brees or Tom Brady, no.   He is however a talented QB that has a lot of tools to work with and he has had the bad luck of injuries, a constant rotation of below average OC's in 4 years, and battered and porous OL this year with no threat of a running game, and below average talent at WR until this season.   When given time and 2 minute offense and open playbook behind him, Mariota has been pretty lethal.   We can win a lot of games with him if we fix the other issues.   He is not the issue.   

Edited December 9, 2018 by Harvey_Specter

[prometheus]

Post more, Harvey.

 

[Harvey_Specter]

Apparen

1 minute ago, JakePA_Titan said:

You dont have to be Brees or Brady to understand your OL is having a bad game and to get the ball out of your damn hands with more urgency. 

 

A throw away is better than a sack, especially on 1st or 2nd down.

 

But I guess you have to be a HOFer to understand and execute that?

Apparently even Brady couldn't do what you are implying is so easy when he played the titans a few weeks ago.   When a QB has no time to throw it is pretty difficult to run an offense consistently.   The onus is on the coaches to figure out a scheme, a personnel grouping that fits that scheme the best, and a set of play calls that play to the strengths of your team and the weaknesses of the other team.   Even the Patriots could not make enough half-time adjustments to fix the flawed game-plan and match up issues they had.    The QB is not responsible for a lot of these issues.    Too many people do not understand the roles QB's play in offenses.   They often get too much praise for offensive success, and too much blame for offensive ineptness.   Most of the blame falls on the OL's and subsequently the coaches.   Give a below average NFL QB a great offensive line and he can win a superbowl.   Put an above average NFL QB behind a terrible offensive line and he can't even win 3 games all season.   This is not rocket science.

[OILERMAN]

25 minutes ago, Harvey_Specter said:

   Even if Mariota shared some responsibility for some of the sacks, don't you think it is equally likely that any QB that sits behind a porous OL starts to panic, rush throws, take off running once they sense some pressure etc.. and any other typical reactions from a player that feels like he could be hit from any side at any moment?    

Have you actually attended any titans practices this summer?   I have.  

 

Even if Mariota shares some of the responsibility? He obvious has a huge problem in this regard and that's been said by even big Mariota fans like Beddingfield. 

 

And other, better QBs def handle bad OL's better than this. They get the ball out, they spread the field and go to s a short passing game. Brady has a pretty bad OL right now, Watson, Ryan etc all very bad OLs and still have very good passing game production. 

 

I didn't attend practices this summer but I talked to people who have and read the reports. It was reportedly alarming how bad Mariota was in the QB camps before training camp. 

[japan]

3 hours ago, charleytolar said:

Thanks. The summary I was looking at eclipsed that game from the stat sheet. Nevertheless, one rushing TD for our "starting" RB is pathetic.

Tolar going Tolar

[Harvey_Specter]

9 minutes ago, OILERMAN said:

Even if Mariota shares some of the responsibility? He obvious has a huge problem in this regard and that's been said by even big Mariota fans like Beddingfield. 

 

And other, better QBs def handle bad OL's better than this. They get the ball out, they spread the field and go to s a short passing game. Brady has a pretty bad OL right now, Watson, Ryan etc all very bad OLs and still have very good passing game production. 

 

I didn't attend practices this summer but I talked to people who have and read the reports. It was reportedly alarming how bad Mariota was in the QB camps before training camp. 

Whoever told you such things is absolutely retarded then.   Mariota looked bad in 11v11 live sessions, but he was pretty damn good in 11v11 on air sessions.    That should have been a good indicator to our offensive staff that he is not making good decisions and is struggling to process what is going on when he is worried about his protections and where the pressure is coming from now that he can be hit.

 

As for Mariota not showing the best judgement when he senses the pocket breaking down and his subsequent decision making when he feels pressured, well that is again a moot point because in games where he hasn't had much pressure he is outstanding.   The games where he has struggled repeatedly, our OL has stunk up the joint.   It has not mattered what other QB has played in this offense, they aren't do any better apparently.   Why is our running game which you love to argue about so piss poor?    All the blame should be directed at the OL, and the coaches, not the RB's or Mariota.   Both have shown when given running lanes and enough time to throw in a clean pocket, this offense can be pretty good.   

Edited December 9, 2018 by Harvey_Specter

[charleytolar]

16 minutes ago, japan said:

Tolar going Tolar

Quit being a Troll.

[Harvey_Specter]

I've seen more than enough of Mariota over the past 4 years to see he has a lot of ability.   When he has had good offensive line play and Delanie Walker and a decent running game he has been a top 7 QB looking at any metric or statistical category you want to bring up.    

If you want to make this about Mariota's injury history that would be an acceptable concern.   Once QB's get hurt a lot, they tend to panic and make more poor decisions than a confident QB.   I don't believe Mariota has reached this point yet, but this is a valid argument.   I would argue that i have seen Mariota play very well despite bad OL play, an injured nerve, and a constant rotation of WR's and TE's and still he has played very well at times this year when they open up the playbook and let him run and pass.   Trying to run it on first and second down and being predictable at the start of each game has been an awful formula for dual threat QB's in the NFL.   Let Mariota be Mariota and if he gets hurt running it so be it.   Most of his injuries and injuries to mobile QB's have been in the pocket injuries for the record.    Now one could argue that dual threat QB's don't have as good of instincts and pocket awareness that  pure pocket passer QB's have and i would tend to agree with that generalization as well, but again is a set of different discussions than the one we are having in this thread.   

Mariota if given some weapons, a half way decent set of play-calls and the freedom to scramble and run and throw the ball more than 20x a game has typically resulted in very positive results for the titans offense.   Let him throw the ball 35x a game and watch how many points our offenses output changes.   

Edited December 9, 2018 by Harvey_Specter

[Harvey_Specter]

10 minutes ago, JakePA_Titan said:

The pressure has only been consistently bad in about 4 games. And I havent seen him play outstanding in the other 9. Maybe 3 or 4. 

You choose to look at his stats and play throughout an entire game as your assessment point.   That is flawed.   In all 7 of the games we have won for example this year, Mariota has played very well in certain stretches.   Taking into account his injury, the handcuffed play calling, the porous OL play into account, one aspect consistently shows up despite these issues.   When the game is on the line, and our offense is aggressive \ and in desperation mode, Mariota typically plays outstanding.   So i then sit here wondering why they don't build our offensive style to let him and our offense play that way from the very start of a game and see what happens.   

[OILERMAN]

21 minutes ago, Harvey_Specter said:

Whoever told you such things is absolutely retarded then.   

 

 in games where he hasn't had much pressure he is outstanding.  

Kuharsky and Mike Keith both said it, they said he improved in training camp, where he actually struggled. 

 

Cossel said it a few times the last few weeks concerning how Mariota has played facing pressure and a crowded pocket, this is life in the NFL, you have to produce with pressure around you, you have to move inside the pocket and make plays. You ain't getting a world with no pressure very often. 

 

And outstanding is hyperbole. He's on pace for pretty much the same season as last year in regards to TDs and INTs and yards

[Harvey_Specter]

Why does Lewis lead the league in negative rushes as a Titan in his first year?   Go look at his stats for negative plays when he was a patriot for 3 years.   You will see a huge disparity in that statistic.   How come Henry gets big runs when he has enough time to get a few steps in, instead of having to change directions, wait for lanes to never open, and try to read the defense while making such decisions?    The issues our RB's face are quite similar to the issues that Mariota has to deal with as a QB.   The issue is not the players, the issue is the scheme\playcalling and the OL's inability to do anything well.    

Sure keep on going down the path of a complete firesale of all our players.   I've seen enough from the same vocal minority on this board that seem to think Mariota sucks, Cory Davis, Henry, Lewis, Demarco Murray, Taylor, Sharpe all suck or are overrated, but at some point you would think that maybe it's not the skill players that are the issue.   Maybe it is the OL and the coaches.   I have seen enough talent, good plays and ability out of a lot of our skill players.   We have enough talent at those positions to be a good offense.   The problem has consistently been poor OL play and predictable play calling.   

[Number9]

34 minutes ago, Harvey_Specter said:

Whoever told you such things is absolutely retarded then. 

I have taken a rest from this Mariota debate because he will be here next season.  That said, it ridiculous words like this that keep the thing going.  Either you have just started following the team, you're just a Mariota homer, or stupid.  Possibly all three. 

[Harvey_Specter]

16 minutes ago, JakePA_Titan said:

What about Mariotas terrible INT this week? The OL was great. Why he throw that terrible pick? Mariota bad throws and decisions consistently shows up too. But ppl generally always find an excuse to absolve him of any blame. 

Qhen the game is on the line. Adrenaline gets going. The defense tends to be in panic mode. 

 

The entire feeling is different. You cant duplicate that simply by running an up tempo, no huddle offense. 

 

Most QBs are pretty good with the game on the line, how come every team doesnt run hurry up?

 

It's not as easily executed as you think.

 

And if it doesnt work, you will have short offensive possessions and just absolutely kill and piss off your defense. 

 

And I'm pretty sure that's why the Chip Kelly experiment in the NFL was so short lived. 

The Chip Kelly experiment?   He turned a washed up Michael Vick into a pro bowl QB for one year, he got more out of journeyman Mark Sanchez than anyone had or has, and he got Nick Foles a huge pay day and got the eagles a 2nd and fourth round pick along with Sam Bradford in return but sadly for Foles he was sent off to Jeff Fisher, killer of QB's and offenses.  Foles went back to the Eagles and won a superbowl once he left Jeff Fisher's graveyard, meanwhile Jeff Fisher's rams got taken over by Mcvay and are putting more points on the board than we can count at this point.   

Chip Kelly's X's and O's and schemes sent NFL DC's in a frenzy in his first 3 years with the Eagles.   Chip Kelly did not succeed in the NFL because of his play - calling or scheme.   He failed because his staff didn't like him, he was viewed as racist, he ran off a lot of talented and well- liked players because he wanted to show his team who was boss and has a my way or highway kind of attitude.   His off the wall practice schedule and sports science stuff was made fun of by Eagles players initially, and now a lot of those ideas are pretty standard for every NFL team.    Chip Kelly has his issues as a coach, but his scheme and offensive mind are certainly not the problem, in fact he is still considered one of the best offensive minds in any level of football even with all of the negative press and his failure with the Eagles and his 1 year stint at SF.   

Edited December 9, 2018 by Harvey_Specter

[OILERMAN]

6 minutes ago, Number9 said:

I have taken a rest from this Mariota debate because he will be here next season.  That said, it ridiculous words like this that keep the thing going.  Either you have just started following the team, you're just a Mariota homer, or stupid.  Possibly all three. 

@Number9 do you remember PSG3?

[OILERMAN]

Just now, Harvey_Specter said:

The Chip Kelly experiment?   He turned a washed up Michael Vick into a pro bowl QB for one year, he got more out of journeyman Mark Sanchez than anyone had or has, and he got Nick Foles a huge pay day

Chip Kelly's X's and O's and schemes sent NFL DC's in a frenzy. 

Here we go