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Bink

"Foster care or whatever..."

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That's got to be the harshest policy I've heard yet on illegal immigration.  Cross illegally and we'll take your children from you.  Am I reading that right?

 

It would definitely be effective in cutting down on illegal crossings though.  It would also cause backlash I'm sure.  Honestly, this is a better solution to me than the wall, harsh as it is.

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16 hours ago, JakePA_Titan said:

So what are we trying to make a big deal about. The actual policy or the "or whatever" comment?

I just think it's a revealing comment that shows the push is to be more draconian and less compassionate and human when enforcing immigration norms. I fundamentally disagree with many about how significant an issue immigration is or how much of a detriment it is to the collective society we are trying to build, however I think we lose sight of our humanity when we let it get to a point when we are this dismissive of human life. Don't expect the people who believe that immigrants are destroying the country to agree with me although I've seen shit all evidence to prove that argument is true. 

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38 minutes ago, Bink said:

I just think it's a revealing comment that shows the push is to be more draconian and less compassionate and human when enforcing immigration norms. I fundamentally disagree with many about how significant an issue immigration is or how much of a detriment it is to the collective society we are trying to build, however I think we lose sight of our humanity when we let it get to a point when we are this dismissive of human life. Don't expect the people who believe that immigrants are destroying the country to agree with me although I've seen shit all evidence to prove that argument is true. 

How compassionate are you towards the kids that get taken away from the cracked out parents or those that commit crimes and get locked up?

 

If people cared about their kids they wouldn't put them in positions to be seperated. Or of it meant doing wrong to take care of them, make sure you don't get caught.

 

Can't let people (illegals or legit citizens) do bad and get away with it just because they have a kid.

 

Facts.

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31 minutes ago, JakePA_Titan said:

How compassionate are you towards the kids that get taken away from the cracked out parents or those that commit crimes and get locked up?

 

If people cared about their kids they wouldn't put them in positions to be seperated. Or of it meant doing wrong to take care of them, make sure you don't get caught.

 

Can't let people (illegals or legit citizens) do bad and get away with it just because they have a kid.

 

Facts.

Compassion should always be a part of our decisions, and you aren't really comparing apples to apples here. Regardless, you don't have to be compassionate or even apply a small amount of critical thinking to these types of issues if you don't want to. I'm not going to try to convince anyone here anymore--thinking about the way this immigration debate has manifested and the people in my own community affected--comparing that to what seems like a race to become increasingly more cruel and heartless or indifferent and dismissive without really weighing whether or not the policy fits the crime, as they say it is what it is. There's no difference between a drug addict and immigrant to you and you don't seem to care how our society addresses either group. Be who you wanna be, my dude. 

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18 hours ago, JakePA_Titan said:

So what are we trying to make a big deal about. The actual policy or the "or whatever" comment?

Are you fucking retarded? 

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23 minutes ago, Bink said:

Compassion should always be a part of our decisions, and you aren't really comparing apples to apples here. Regardless, you don't have to be compassionate or even apply a small amount of critical thinking to these types of issues if you don't want to. I'm not going to try to convince anyone here anymore--thinking about the way this immigration debate has manifested and the people in my own community affected--comparing that to what seems like a race to become increasingly more cruel and heartless or indifferent and dismissive without really weighing whether or not the policy fits the crime, as they say it is what it is. There's no difference between a drug addict and immigrant to you and you don't seem to care how our society addresses either group. Be who you wanna be, my dude. 

How aren't you? If your issue and focal point is separating children from family, why do you use the different routes as a way to not answer the question? Both outcomes, which you say is your main concern, are identical.

 

37 minutes ago, Bink said:

Compassion should always be a part of our decisions, and you aren't really comparing apples to apples here. Regardless, you don't have to be compassionate or even apply a small amount of critical thinking to these types of issues if you don't want to. I'm not going to try to convince anyone here anymore--thinking about the way this immigration debate has manifested and the people in my own community affected--comparing that to what seems like a race to become increasingly more cruel and heartless or indifferent and dismissive without really weighing whether or not the policy fits the crime, as they say it is what it is. There's no difference between a drug addict and immigrant to you and you don't seem to care how our society addresses either group. Be who you wanna be, my dude. 

Law and Order comes before feelings.

 

If it didn't, anyone in a fucked up position could get away with committing crimes just for the sake of "Im trying to better my life".

 

How much compassion do you have for the Americans that lost their jobs due to illegals taking them on the cheap?

 

People who all of a sudden were put in a fucked up position with no fault of their own....

 

I might have compassion if there wasn't a legal way to get into America. But there is. And it can be a long process, I get it. But there are things we all have to wait for. We can't just go take it just because.

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30 minutes ago, JakePA_Titan said:

How aren't you? If your issue and focal point is separating children from family, why do you use the different routes as a way to not answer the question? Both outcomes, which you say is your main concern, are identical.

 

Law and Order comes before feelings.

 

If it didn't, anyone in a fucked up position could get away with committing crimes just for the sake of "Im trying to better my life".

 

How much compassion do you have for the Americans that lost their jobs due to illegals taking them on the cheap?

 

People who all of a sudden were put in a fucked up position with no fault of their own....

 

I might have compassion if there wasn't a legal way to get into America. But there is. And it can be a long process, I get it. But there are things we all have to wait for. We can't just go take it just because.

I'm not sure where you are coming from. I'm not simply focused on the outcome with blinders--I'm interested in looking into all of our social problems, weighing their impact on society, and taking human measures to address them and build a better world. That means attempting to address the drug crisis and looking at the impact immigration makes on us realistically and focusing on pathways to better systems. 

 

And this isn't about putting law and order before feelings. Laws, policies, systems and our enforcement of them--they can be and often are flawed. Having empathy and compassion isn't just about feelings--those are determinants to building a better society. 

 

You can't really just dismiss everything as "its the law." If that's the case, why don't most conservatives shut up and accept abortion? 

 

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52 minutes ago, Bink said:

I'm not sure where you are coming from. I'm not simply focused on the outcome with blinders--I'm interested in looking into all of our social problems, weighing their impact on society, and taking human measures to address them and build a better world. That means attempting to address the drug crisis and looking at the impact immigration makes on us realistically and focusing on pathways to better systems. 

 

And this isn't about putting law and order before feelings. Laws, policies, systems and our enforcement of them--they can be and often are flawed. Having empathy and compassion isn't just about feelings--those are determinants to building a better society. 

 

You can't really just dismiss everything as "its the law." If that's the case, why don't most conservatives shut up and accept abortion? 

 

So what are your alternatives? Right now doesn't sit around and wait for you to weigh options and figure out what's best (as you see it).

 

What would be your alternative to the 'right now' as it relates illegal immigration?

 

And then once you've had enough time to weigh options, I'm interested in hearing the revised plan.

 

Always get the sense people are criticizing and really haven't given much thought about it other than thinking "that's not right, there has to be a better way".

 

See, with your last question, there actually ARE logical and easy alternatives to having an abortion. For one, dont have sex if you aren't ready to have a kid or dont know wtf you're doing. Or two, there are things called condoms and birth control. There is a clinic in almost all cities. Not hard to take advantage.

 

But, do you have an eaiser plan to deal with immigration than conservatives do when it comes to abortion vs condoms/abstinence?

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33 minutes ago, JakePA_Titan said:

So what are your alternatives? Right now doesn't sit around and wait for you to weigh options and figure out what's best (as you see it).

 

What would be your alternative to the 'right now' as it relates illegal immigration?

 

And then once you've had enough time to weigh options, I'm interested in hearing the revised plan.

 

Always get the sense people are criticizing and really haven't given much thought about it other than thinking "that's not right, there has to be a better way".

 

See, with your last question, there actually ARE logical and easy alternatives to having an abortion. For one, dont have sex if you aren't ready to have a kid or dont know wtf you're doing. Or two, there are things called condoms and birth control. There is a clinic in almost all cities. Not hard to take advantage.

 

But, do you have an eaiser plan to deal with immigration than conservatives do when it comes to abortion vs condoms/abstinence?

3

Jake, my first solution is to simply not proceed with this move. It's as simple as that. Splitting up families and having ICE stalk parents outside of school is not an enforcement of law but a revealing of America's worst character in place of what it could be at its best. Stop using children as pawns. 

 

I do have some policy recommendations actually. First, we need to stop demonizing immigrants and blaming all of our problems on them. We need to separate immigration from xenophobia and look at the impact of immigrants on our communities. 

 

My primary platform would be easier pathways to citizenship and easier ways to get work visas. Also, we can continue to enforce immigration but the level of aggression displayed is unwarranted. Most immigrants who are here come legally but overstay because they become ingrained in a community and contribute to it positively. I don't really see that as this big horrible problem. 

 

1) Strengthening local sponsorship programs to protect people with outstanding ties to our community. An illegal immigrant came from Mexico 30 years ago, has a wife, children and owns a business. We should not target this person but create an easy pathway for him. 

 

2) Keep our promises. Fully support DREAMers. Don't use the information they voluntarily gave to this program against them. They are overwhelmingly going to contribute to our society. We once asked people to come out of the shadows and then put a knife in their back. 

 

3) Easier work visas/guest work programs. A lot of immigrants want to come to do work. They want to do work that isn't impacting the jobs Americans will do. They want to work in areas where we need workers. Fucking let them. 

 

4) Hold businesses accountable for employing illegal labor. We always shit on the immigrants but not the business---fitting in a society where everyone looks down but never up at the money makers or those in power. A society where separating a child from a parent is a better outcome than hitting a business with a fine is not a good one. Similarly, incentivize businesses that don't break labor laws. 

 

5) Make sure that our support services remain safe-havens. A victim of domestic violence? You should be able to go to a shelter without fear of being deported. 

 

6) Strengthening the border by fixing existing structures and creating better processes that recruit, train, and support border enforcement. I think the wall is a waste of money and would be ineffective anyway, but existing structures can and should be examined. I think the culture in immigration enforcement absolutely needs to change. In general, I think cops need to be paid better and be incentivized to get training/degrees in social work to cultivate cultural understanding and empathy based skills. Cops taking classes and getting advanced degrees. 

 

7) Stop laws that enable police to racial profile. Make legal immigrants feel welcome and protected. Stop voter suppression. Let legal immigrants see this country belongs to them too. 

 

8) Create a transparent method for evaluating violent criminal offenders for potential deportation. 

 

9) If an illegal immigrant is going to be deported, ensure that deportation is done in a humane way. Don't separate families. Stop predatory ambushes at schools, hospitals, and churches. 

 

10) As communities, come together to combat ignorance, xenophobia, dehumanizing rhetoric etc. 

 

This is how I would do it. There has never been a point in my life where I saw our enforcement of immigration law or the problem of immigration as enough to justify the current level and practice of enforcement. 

 

Your point about abortion, by the way, is something I believe strongly about. If conservatives were actually interested in stopping abortion, policy decsions like funding clinics and providing birth control would be no brainers. That's not the agenda. Most conservatives are against access to condoms and birthcontrol even though it has been proven time and time again these things cut down on abortion. 

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