oldschool Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Startes re reading the books, forcing myself to go slowly. I never could read a good book slowly, instead I race through to find out what happens. Having read these twice through before helps. Anyway, have come across two things relevant to our discussions here: 1. Daneareys we have discussed whether and to what extent she really is destined to be the hero to save westeros. What if she never comes to westeros at all? Two passages caught my interest in the first book. "yet Vaes Dothrak is large enough to house every man of every khalasar, should all the Khalid return to the Mother at once. The crones have prophesied that one day that will come to pass, and so Vaes Dothrak must be ready to embrace all its children." what is Dany called by all of her people? Mother. And she is the mother of dragons. And several times while married to Drogo she reflects on the fact she is to join the other former Khalessi in the city anyway when her Khal dies. And then the kicker. Her son is proclaimed/prophesied by the old khlessi crones to be "the stallion that mounts the world." Mormont explains: "The stallion is the Khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd." now we all know the son dies. But what if the crones are right, but instead of a human child it is Drogon they are talking about, ridden by Dany? 2. The sword Longclaw lots of discussion about how unbelievable it is that such a valuable sword would be given to Jon first, Mormont says after the attack that he had nearly forgotten the sword once it had been returned to him by Jorah, upon his exile, Mormont could not bear to look at it because of how painful it was to him the sword lost all value to him at that point because of the shame on his house then of course we learn the sword is given because Jon saved his life: "A swords small payment for a life, boy." But there's more to it than that. He talks about how Jon not only saves his life, but figured out how to kill the wights: "You fought bravely... And more to the point, you thought quickly. Fire! Yes, damnit. We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered. The Long Night has come before. Oh, eight thousand years is a good while, to be sure. Yet if the Nights Watch does not remember, who will?" So Jon didn't just save his life - he found he way to maybe save the entire world. Mans then we get several pages that talk about Jons complicated feelings about his brother and being a bastard and how Ice is really the sword he wanted. Take it all together and the picture you get is Mormont sees Jon somewhat as the son he no longer has, and himself as a father to Jon. He knows the watch needs Jon, he knows Jon is going to want to leave once he finds out Robb is marching south, and he thinks they could both personally be good for each other. Very complex psychologically take it all together and there is nothing unusual at all about Longclaw passing to Jon Have you considered doing POV rereads? I haven't done one yet but was thinking of starting with Dany or Jon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreepingDeath Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Have you considered doing POV rereads? I haven't done one yet but was thinking of starting with Dany or Jon. wouldn't that be difficult when POVs interact? You'd have to expand your selection if you wanted to prevent gaps in the story (ex: the wall has Sam and Jon and eventually others). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 A POV read is designed to better understand their perspective. Not having the added context from other POVs helps because the character doesn't know it either. oldschool 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legaltitan Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Never made the Drogo Drogon connection. Awesome how rich these books are. Can still miss something as obvious as that. I don't see it as all foregone conclusion that Dany will cross the narrow sea. It would be very Martin like to not have that happen. Hell the Targa come from old valaryiA. maybe it's her destiny to unite the east, free all the slaves, and restore Valaryia as a free city. Maybe no one "defeats" the Others. Not in battle anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Seems like Quaithe really wanted her to go to Asshai. Not sure if that will still happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legaltitan Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Just got to the part where Jon returns after fleeing the wall and Mormont is talking about his plans to go north. Talks about how Jon has the blood of the first men in him and his wolf meant for the wall, and how he is likely to have stored memories others do not. Yet another reason for the gift of the sword. Mormont knows he needs Jon - his battle with the wights cemented that. There is nothing Mormont would not give Jon to keep he and his wolf at the wall. Winter is coming. On top of everything else, Longclaw was a signing bonus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Dude, if the richest guy in the world can't buy, negotiate for or otherwise steal a sword then you can't get a free sword without being a super-special-plot-protected character. This is all plot protection noting what a special guy our hero is. It's well done but it's incongruous but it's OK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 You also don't get a pet dire wolf or dragon without plot protection. We get it. But it's still all totally believable in the world GRRM created. There's a perfectly logical explanation of how Mormont had the sword and would just give it to Jon. Don't overthink it... Legaltitan, CreepingDeath, and reo 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legaltitan Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 You also don't get a pet dire wolf or dragon without plot protection. We get it. But it's still all totally believable in the world GRRM created. There's a perfectly logical explanation of how Mormont had the sword and would just give it to Jon. Don't overthink it... Dude, if the richest guy in the world can't buy, negotiate for or otherwise steal a sword then you can't get a free sword without being a super-special-plot-protected character. This is all plot protection noting what a special guy our hero is. It's well done but it's incongruous but it's OK. I thought I laid out a pretty good case myself. reo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 I don't think he would have given Jon the sword just to keep him at the Wall. I think giving him Longclaw was just about repaying the debt of saving his life. I think that if Jon abandoned the Watch, Mormont would have had Jon executed. reo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OILERMAN Posted July 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 It's so obvious Jon Snow is still alive/coming back reo, and Starkiller 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Outside of the white-walker killing properties valyrian steel is a cool collectible ie damascus steel. It's not infinitely valuable just a cool thing to have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamalisms Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 If you can't buy one, as Tywin couldn't, it is infinitely valuable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Outside of the white-walker killing properties valyrian steel is a cool collectible ie damascus steel. It's not infinitely valuable just a cool thing to have. Didn't you notice how Brienne sword sliced right through one of Littlefinger's men's swords? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkiller Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 If you can't buy one, as Tywin couldn't, it is infinitely valuable. Well, you would have to be pretty desperate to sell one anyway... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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