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By Attacking Ocasio-Cortez, the Right Is Accidentally Selling Socialism


OILERMAN

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The Dems have a huge opening to win elections, openly embrace the platform of single payer, free college, housing and a federal jobs program that pays a real living wage...... 

 

The right wing attacks on this stuff is failing embarrassingly. 

 

You can't give rich people a tax cut that costs 1.5-2 trill and then suddenly claim this stuff is too expensive. 

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3 hours ago, OILERMAN said:

The Dems have a huge opening to win elections, openly embrace the platform of single payer, free college, housing and a federal jobs program that pays a real living wage...... 

 

The right wing attacks on this stuff is failing embarrassingly. 

 

You can't give rich people a tax cut that costs 1.5-2 trill and then suddenly claim this stuff is too expensive. 

It is a expensive though. The current deficits during economic prosperity are also dangerous.  I think the cost argument against these things can’t be argued by the Trump party but any platform needs to include how to do these things while controlling the deficit.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Pragidealist said:

It is a expensive though. 

All the studies show it's cheaper than our already expensive health care costs. 

 

Not to mention the massive business stimulus by not having to pay for employee healthcare cost

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3 hours ago, OILERMAN said:

All the studies show it's cheaper than our already expensive health care costs. 

 

Not to mention the massive business stimulus by not having to pay for employee healthcare cost

That’s just the Medicare for all which is the  easiest to rationalize. Free community college and guaranteed housing are great goals but harder to figure out. 

 

I think philosophically Medicare for all, Gaurenteed housing, free education and even universal basic income will all pay off  in terms of societal impacts and even societal economic return. But the pragmatic tax- program modeling need to be figured out. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Pragidealist said:

That’s just the Medicare for all which is the  easiest to rationalize. Free community college and guaranteed housing are great goals but harder to figure out. 

 

I think philosophically Medicare for all, Gaurenteed housing, free education and even universal basic income will all pay off  in terms of societal impacts and even societal economic return.

 

It never has and never will.

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2 hours ago, Pragidealist said:

 are great goals but harder to figure out. 

They don't worry about figuring out massive unfunded tax cuts and wars but always start screaming funding for things that help middle class. This is why the progressive ideas are polling well, the gig is up

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5 hours ago, OILERMAN said:

All the studies show it's cheaper than our already expensive health care costs. 

 

Not to mention the massive business stimulus by not having to pay for employee healthcare cost

Without getting into something that is far too complicated to address in a post:

* It's not like health care is free and then with a single payer system it isn't.  Simply a shift in format that creates winners but also some that end up with a much worse deal than now, i,e, insurers especially.

 

* Bigger deal overall instead of all the red herrings is getting costs down.  When procedures in 1st world countries that are overall much more expensive places to live (like Japan, Switzerland) cost way, way less than here, you know something is wrong.

 

* I have a very small business, basically 3 full time employees besides myself (rest contractor).  Only one has family to insure, as do I.  So 2 single guys and 2 family sets.  And I pay $40K+ a year for health and dental on a good but not best plan with Kaiser - which is already cheaper than most, certainly in HI.  If you said now you pay $40K extra in biz taxes and don't have to pay insurance (or manage it, which is quite a deal, lots of time and effort employees never see nor think about you doing) and everyone is covered, then I am all in.

 

There are legit concerns over how such a system would be run, and the transition could be horrible.  But it's not as absurd as many would think.  And I may lean a little left on some things but trust me I have a pro-biz slant, especially biased small since I am and my Dad was, and single payer could be a huge benefit to small biz as it levels the playing field.

 

Would there be problems?  Yes, plenty.  Are there now, yes?

 

Would gov't employees screw things up?  Yes.  Do insurers now, and perhaps with less than benevolent intents (to max profits over health)?  Of course.

 

My plan forever and ever since pre-Clinton: Universal Baseline Coverage paid with income and bus tax (can't be all payroll since would deter hiring).  Insurance companies do get whacked, but end up leaner and meaner running Cadillac programs such that Americans of more means pay on top of baseline fed coverage to get better (American/capitalist way), and Docs that want to say screw working under the Fed can choose to only accept Cadillac plans.  Completely fair, just, equitable, etc?  Nope. But gets some/better coverage to far more, keeps incentives in place for higher end R&D via private sector, might (should) reduce costs of current insurance bloat that contributes not only nothing but a negative addition (like stopping the spillage of oil in Alaska and sadly you no longer need otter scrubbers - so sad), reduces a massive ton of admin on American biz, and so on.

 

Can you imagine?  Just walk in, show ID (yes ID, if not, well, you will be treated but you need to at least let them know who you are).  

 

On the downside, I can see ER rooms full of cough-cough can't make it to work today need a note.  Not sure how you fix that without creating additional problems.  Incentives like tax benefits for being "healthy" and not incurring much costs on the system are interesting, but then you got a guy with his leg rotting off who doesn't see a doctor because he wants that rebate come tax season.  Nothing is perfect.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, OILERMAN said:

They don't worry about figuring out massive unfunded tax cuts and wars but always start screaming funding for things that help middle class. This is why the progressive ideas are polling well, the gig is up

Never attributable entirely to the President, but I will always appreciate Clinton (really Silicon Valley boom and no major wars) took us from 4.7% of GDP deficit to 2.4% % surplus (just looked that up, not like I knew exacts off of top of head).   Convenient for him while he was in, but he was a good cheerleader for that time, and didn't' screw it up (especially as he campaigned more leftish but governed way more center on many things, much like Obama - you want actual left, see Sanders).  Put some in the bank while you're making it for a rainy day.  The Rainy Day just happened to be called Iraq/Afghanistan and more (unneeded) tax cuts. 

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55 minutes ago, OILERMAN said:

They don't worry about figuring out massive unfunded tax cuts and wars but always start screaming funding for things that help middle class. This is why the progressive ideas are polling well, the gig is up

Sure - there is the hypocrisy of the gop. There is the messaging and perception that can be sold. Then there is also the reality of what’s best for the country long term. 

 

The last is as equally as important as the first two 

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10 hours ago, JakePA_Titan said:

Now I see why Shapiro wanted to debate her....and why she refused. He would ruin her campaign.

He would have embarrassed her and she knows it. Just listen to any of her speeches, she is absolutely clueless.

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Double.  That's how much more we pay over other developed countries for essentially the same health care in today's market.  The idea that American health care is such superior quality to those other places is also a complete myth.  An ER trip in Germany took me about 30-45 minutes.  Total time in the door to out the door.  My mother in law fell getting off the train and got a nasty infection.  They treated her there, sent her to a local doctor for a follow up (everyone spoke English by the way), and gave her a prescription to get the thing to go away.

 

Total out of pocket cost: Roughly 30 euros.  

 

Now, Germans do pay a higher base tax but Americans are fooling themselves if they think they aren't being taxed just as much or more.  We are a wealthier country but our average cost of living is higher and quality of life is lower in comparison.  That should tell you a lot. 

 

I'm usually pretty pro getting the government out of stuff but in the case of health care, it just makes more sense, especially if it's cheaper and can drive down costs and be more easily regulated, to put it in the hands of the government.

 

Yes, they'll screw it up.  But really, can they do any worse than what we have now?

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24 minutes ago, Justafan said:

Double.  That's how much more we pay over other developed countries for essentially the same health care in today's market.  

A lot of those other countries have a longer expected life too

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