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The Patriots Dynasty Whose Most Responsible (Is Brady leading a revolt against Belichick?)

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abc2330   
On 4/18/2018 at 11:34 PM, JNew said:

I don't think anyone is saying Brady is solely responsible, or that Belicheck is just a lucky idiot who landed the best QB of all time. But a lucky idiot could have won quite a lot with Tom Brady.

 

Do you imagine that Brady would have been successful under Mike Mularkey?  I don't think people take into consideration what a liability that his lack of mobility is.  There is a reason that mobility is always included in scouting reports.

 

  In an offense which can protect him and keep him squarely in the pocket with everything in front of him, with plenty of checkdown options in case of pressure and open receivers in general due to the mismatches that NE likes to play, he is excellent.  In a simple 90s offense which has 2 or 3 receivers in predictable ISO routes and no utilization of the RB as a receiver, he would not have the success.  He would still look like Brady, but I believe defenses would have a much easier time figuring him out if NEs offense wasn't always throwing the kitchen sink at them and playing a scheme which is just difficult to manage.   I don't think he hides the weaknesses in the supporting cast like a GOAT should.  His stats during his first few years with a modest group of skill players were definitely nothing to write home about.  

Edited by abc2330

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5 minutes ago, abc2330 said:

Do you imagine that Brady would have been successful under Mike Mularkey?  I don't think people take into consideration what a liability that his lack of mobility is.  There is a reason that mobility is always included in scouting reports.

 

  In an offense which can protect him and keep him squarely in the pocket with everything in front of him, with plenty of checkdown options in case of pressure and open receivers in general due to the mismatches that NE likes to play, he is excellent.  In a simple 90s offense which has 2 or 3 receivers in predictable ISO routes and no utilization of the RB as a receiver, he would not have the success.  He would still look like Brady, but I believe defenses would have a much easier time figuring him out if NEs offense wasn't always throwing the kitchen sink at them and playing a scheme which is just difficult to manage.   I don't think he hides the weaknesses in the supporting cast like a GOAT should.  His stats during his first few years with a modest group of skill players were definitely nothing to write home about.  

The reason Brady can survive in an offense with a lot of options and less protection is because of his accuracy, quick release, great decision making, mastery of the offense, and, yes, mobility in the pocket. If anybody could execute the offense the way he does his accomplishments would be league wide phenomena. NE can throw the kitchen sink and play a difficult to manage scheme because Brady is at the helm. That he's accomplished this with only 2 dominant skill players in an 18 year career (Moss and Gronkowski) is truly special.

 

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abc2330   
28 minutes ago, JNew said:

The reason Brady can survive in an offense with a lot of options and less protection is because of his accuracy, quick release, great decision making, mastery of the offense, and, yes, mobility in the pocket. If anybody could execute the offense the way he does his accomplishments would be league wide phenomena. NE can throw the kitchen sink and play a difficult to manage scheme because Brady is at the helm. That he's accomplished this with only 2 dominant skill players in an 18 year career (Moss and Gronkowski) is truly special.

 

Gronk and Moss aren't dominant.  They are unstoppable.  I'm not sure what he has done, considering he has had two of the most unstoppable receivers in the history of the NFL, is really that special, considering that he doesn't even have the highest QB rating of all time.  And he's had at least 5 receivers with multiple 1,000 yard seasons in their prime since 2007, with a plethora of other pass catching weapons.  Name another modern QB who has had that. Before that, his stats were game-manager caliber.

 

The SBs are special, but again, he's aided by an All-time great coach and terrific defensive performances.  I did the math once, and the defense allowed around 18 PPG in the playoffs during all of the SB runs.  It's difficult to lose with a defense like that.

Edited by abc2330

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wtenn   

As great as Brady has become, I believe Belichick has to be given much credit for DEVELOPING him into a franchise quarterback.  When he started he was very rough around the edges (nowhere nearly as skilled as Drew Bledsoe).  But he did have one component that you can't teach.  He was clutch.  After his amazing game saving and game winning drives in the Tuck Game and Super Bowl it was obvious he was special.  With that said, if not for Belichick, Brady would currently be remembered as a former NFL backup who had some impressive wins while at the University of Michigan.

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3 hours ago, abc2330 said:

Gronk and Moss aren't dominant.  They are unstoppable.  I'm not sure what he has done, considering he has had two of the most unstoppable receivers in the history of the NFL, is really that special, considering that he doesn't even have the highest QB rating of all time.  And he's had at least 5 receivers with multiple 1,000 yard seasons in their prime since 2007, with a plethora of other pass catching weapons.  Name another modern QB who has had that. Before that, his stats were game-manager caliber.

 

The SBs are special, but again, he's aided by an All-time great coach and terrific defensive performances.  I did the math once, and the defense allowed around 18 PPG in the playoffs during all of the SB runs.  It's difficult to lose with a defense like that.

Usually a QB gets credit for spreading the football around. Brady has 5 different receivers with 1,000 yard seasons and that is supposed to be a knock against him? Like you said, who else has done that? That's a credit to him not a mark against him.

 

Again you point to early stats to call him a game manager. The early offense he was in was not a spread offense with 5 receiving options at all times. He always executed what was given to him and did so very well.

 

Moss was already past his prime and even with the greatest TEs you're lucky to get 1,000 yards from the best in a given season. Outstanding players but these guys did not make Tom Brady and without them or their numbers he'd still be considered the greatest.

 

Not taking away from Belicheck but let's be real - you never pick a coach over a QB, especially the best one to ever play.

 

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abc2330   
21 minutes ago, JNew said:

Usually a QB gets credit for spreading the football around. Brady has 5 different receivers with 1,000 yard seasons and that is supposed to be a knock against him? Like you said, who else has done that? That's a credit to him not a mark against him.

 

Again you point to early stats to call him a game manager. The early offense he was in was not a spread offense with 5 receiving options at all times. He always executed what was given to him and did so very well.

 

Moss was already past his prime and even with the greatest TEs you're lucky to get 1,000 yards from the best in a given season. Outstanding players but these guys did not make Tom Brady and without them or their numbers he'd still be considered the greatest.

 

Not taking away from Belicheck but let's be real - you never pick a coach over a QB, especially the best one to ever play.

 

I'm surprised that you can't see the correlation.  

 

You can say what you want to about Moss and Gronk, but why did he not put up the stats that he has over the past 10 years prior to their arrival?  And do not diminish the impact of Gronk.  He required the attention of our best player on defense the entire game, as he does for every single defense that he faces.  Moss also put up over 1k yards with Matt Cassel.  Not bad for a guy past his prime.

 

3 of his 1k receivers were Moss, Gronk, and Cooks.  They don't need Brady to produce like that.  Considering Welker had over 1k yards with Matt Cassell, neither did he.  Edelman is really the only one who you can make a case for Brady elevating, but his production was right in line while Jimmy G. was playing.  People try to diminish his supporting cast, when in reality, nobody has had better help over the past decade.  

Edited by abc2330

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Face   
3 hours ago, abc2330 said:

Gronk and Moss aren't dominant.  They are unstoppable.  I'm not sure what he has done, considering he has had two of the most unstoppable receivers in the history of the NFL, is really that special, considering that he doesn't even have the highest QB rating of all time.  And he's had at least 5 receivers with multiple 1,000 yard seasons in their prime since 2007, with a plethora of other pass catching weapons.  Name another modern QB who has had that. Before that, his stats were game-manager caliber.

 

The SBs are special, but again, he's aided by an All-time great coach and terrific defensive performances.  I did the math once, and the defense allowed around 18 PPG in the playoffs during all of the SB runs.  It's difficult to lose with a defense like that.

You're not sure that what he's done is special? Take a gander at his numbers in the games Gronk missed. Not exactly a drop off....

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abc2330   
3 minutes ago, Face said:

You're not sure that what he's done is special? Take a gander at his numbers in the games Gronk missed. Not exactly a drop off....

So in 2013, when Gronk missed over half the games and Brady posted his worst QB rating, completion percentage, Y/A, and TD/INT ratio in a decade, that wasn't a drop-off?  He was a completely different QB.  The difference that year is that Bill was left without an adequate fill-in after the A. Hernandez incident, which wasn't exactly the case when they had M. Bennett in 2016.

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Great GMs surround great talent with more great talent. Its that simple. Brady was great and having Gronk and Moss shouldnt take anything away

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35 minutes ago, abc2330 said:

I'm surprised that you can't see the correlation.  

 

You can say what you want to about Moss and Gronk, but why did he not put up the stats that he has over the past 10 years prior to their arrival?  And do not diminish the impact of Gronk.  He required the attention of our best player on defense the entire game, as he does for every single defense that he faces.  Moss also put up over 1k yards with Matt Cassel.  Not bad for a guy past his prime.

 

3 of his 1k receivers were Moss, Gronk, and Cooks.  They don't need Brady to produce like that.  Considering Welker had over 1k yards with Matt Cassell, neither did he.  Edelman is really the only one who you can make a case for Brady elevating, but his production was right in line while Jimmy G. was playing.  People try to diminish his supporting cast, when in reality, nobody has had better help over the past decade.  

I already mentioned that his stats earlier in his career were due to the type of offense run, a much more traditional formation with 2 WRs and 2 TEs. 

 

As for the 1k seasons, Rishard Matthews could have a 1k season with Brady he almost had it here in a much more limited offense. 1k season is good but isn't the Hallmark of greatness - saying Moss had a 1k season doesn't mean he wasn't past his prime. Besides I'm not diminishing any of these players' accomplishments - clearly these are all talented players and it takes two to tango with passing and receiving. My point is Brady has done it with so many different players over the years. Who else can say they have done this?? No Marvin Harrison, no Edgerrin James, No Jerry Rice, no Roger Craig. The closest player would be Weller and while great he is still considered a notch below those guys. 

 

At this point I'm wondering what it would take for Tom Brady to impress you. 

 

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abc2330   
18 minutes ago, JNew said:

I already mentioned that his stats earlier in his career were due to the type of offense run, a much more traditional formation with 2 WRs and 2 TEs. 

 

As for the 1k seasons, Rishard Matthews could have a 1k season with Brady he almost had it here in a much more limited offense. 1k season is good but isn't the Hallmark of greatness - saying Moss had a 1k season doesn't mean he wasn't past his prime. Besides I'm not diminishing any of these players' accomplishments - clearly these are all talented players and it takes two to tango with passing and receiving. My point is Brady has done it with so many different players over the years. Who else can say they have done this?? No Marvin Harrison, no Edgerrin James, No Jerry Rice, no Roger Craig. The closest player would be Weller and while great he is still considered a notch below those guys. 

 

At this point I'm wondering what it would take for Tom Brady to impress you. 

 

I don't understand why people throw out the name of these great receivers, while not acknowledging that Gronk is the kind of stat-enhancing player that every single one of them is.

 

I think people get more caught up in the accomplishents of Brady rather than judging him by what he does on the field.  It's a matter of opinion, but after watching the last SB, I don't think an unbiased eye could have told you who was the GOAT and who was a failed backup QB.  Not by matter of performance, but by ability.

 

 Even when someone on the court has a better game than Lebron, I'm sure threat everyone knows who the generational player is..  But they both Foles and Brady looked like accurate pocket QBs with good protection and receivers.  If you watch Aaron Rodgers, he flies off the screen with his scrambling and playmaking ability, as well as his ability to make seemingly impossible throws and ball placement.  Wilson is the same in certain ways.  They are both 10x more athletic and have higher career QB ratings with much more flawed supporting casts and coaching.  Brady just seems to be throwing to open receivers, as good as he is.   I just think that a lot of QBs would have had similar success if they had been in NE.

Edited by abc2330

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On 4/17/2018 at 8:54 PM, MIKE75 said:

 Brady played well enough without making mistakes.

This is an underrated part of that puzzle. His defense was stout and he played the game manager for the first three Super Bowls. He always had the quick release, and he limited turnovers and constantly won field position. Having Adam Vinataeri bail him out several times wasn’t a thing of luck. That was the game plan. It was basically a West coach approach to Fisher ball, and it worked because they had a coach who better understood the quick passing game to move the chains as well as being an expert in special teams. 

 

It sucks we’ve done the basically the opposite with Mariota. Put him in that type of scheme and he thrives as a cog in the machine while developing the skills to ascend to the top of the ranks. The skillset is obvious. They’ve simply asked him to do too much in certain areas (max protect PA from under center) while not asking him to do enough in other areas (flood the field with options and get his brain working alongside his quick delivery). The opposite happened the first year with Whiz leaving him out to dry. 

 

It sucks, but as of now we don’t have much of an idea of who Mariota really is as a franchise QB. 

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In the annual Do Your Job special shown in the preseason following the comeback against Atlanta; they show the players being made to run hills at the end of practice the previous preseason. Who's the coach, yelling at them to dig deep and that working on their conditioning will pay dividends come post season when they're in a close game and the other team runs out of gas and they don't? Bellichick.

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On 4/18/2018 at 11:34 PM, JNew said:

I don't think anyone is saying Brady is solely responsible, or that Belicheck is just a lucky idiot who landed the best QB of all time. But a lucky idiot could have won quite a lot with Tom Brady.

 

I disagree with this. You put Brady in a situation like Mariota or Alex Smith and he’s likely to have ended up like Mett. 

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1 hour ago, abc2330 said:

I don't understand why people throw out the name of these great receivers, while not acknowledging that Gronk is the kind of stat-enhancing player that every single one of them is.

 

I think people get more caught up in the accomplishents of Brady rather than judging him by what he does on the field.  It's a matter of opinion, but after watching the last SB, I don't think an unbiased eye could have told you who was the GOAT and who was a failed backup QB.  Not by matter of performance, but by ability.

 

 Even when someone on the court has a better game than Lebron, I'm sure threat everyone knows who the generational player is..  But they both Foles and Brady looked like accurate pocket QBs with good protection and receivers.  If you watch Aaron Rodgers, he flies off the screen with his scrambling and playmaking ability, as well as his ability to make seemingly impossible throws and ball placement.  Wilson is the same in certain ways.  They are both 10x more athletic and have higher career QB ratings with much more flawed supporting casts and coaching.  Brady just seems to be throwing to open receivers, as good as he is.   I just think that a lot of QBs would have had similar success if they had been in NE.

Trust me I judge by what he does on the field. I haven't mentioned accomplishments, in fact all the emphasis on stats in this discussion is not thebsticking point for me. You keep pointing to yards and passer rating when they don't tell the complete story, only part and out of context. What he does on the field is what I judge, on the field is seared into my memory in that last playoff loss. He made us look fucking silly. I've watched him play, he's incredible. He's not as physically gifted as Rodgers or Wilson or a lot of quarterbacks current or past. Rodgers and Wilson are both amazing future HOF quarterbacks. But in the falcons SB I felt like the only person who had full faith Brady was coming back to win it. I love Wilson and Rodgers but they don't make that comeback.

 

As for comparing Foles and Brady, Foles was amazing that day, but his being amazing that one game doesn't negate how incredible Brady was and is. Brady threw for 500 freaking yards 3tds and no interceptions. He clearly outplayed Foles. Again, would he have had to throw for 600 yards to jump out of the screen at you, to be better than Foles that game? I just don't get how you can downplay this man's accomplishments or why you'd want to. 

 

And while Foles was amazing, it was for a handful of games. If he does it for almost 2 decades he'd be considered right up there with Brady. You act like Foles' Super Bowl performance was pedestrian to make Brady look bad but the argument falls flat.

 

 

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